APG-L Archives

From: Regina Ellison <>
Subject: [APG] Re: APG-D Digest V01 #204
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:30:29
In-Reply-To: <200107120700.f6C704f05995@lists2.rootsweb.com>

In reply to Nathan's question about Italian census records.... most
census-type records in Italy are not open to the public, as they are in the
United States. In some areas of Italy, census records, which were usually
taken for tax purposes, exist from the mid-1700s. The information they
contain varies from place to place, if they exist at all.
The Italian state government began taking general censuses in 1861 and
every 10 years after that. The information is not consistent and often only
the head of household is named. The first census naming everyone was in
1911 and they have continued every 10 years, but these rolls are not
usually open to the public.
Censuses were also taken in various church parishes.
Some towns in the early 1900s recorded a stato di famiglia, or a
certificate for each family living in the town, using census information.
These may be available by writing the town's anagrafe office. But not all
towns have these records.
The only "census" information I have been able to obtain was through a
distant cousin, a village historian who is familiar with the archives. He
located a census taken in the 1700s on one of my families. I was unable to
obtain a photocopy, but he hand-copied the information for me.
If any microfilmed records exist, they would probably have been filmed for
the Family History Library. Check the locality catalogue at your nearest
Family History Center for the town or province you are researching. This
information would also be online at the Family History Library Web site,
www.familysearch.org.
You might also write to the state archives in the province where your
ancestors lived to inquire about the existence of census records and
whether information can be obtained by mail. The response to request of
this type is also inconsistent, but it is worth a try.
Many Italian towns or comune have Web sites now. You might find your area
of interest through a search engine and make contact with someone who can
help you.
"Italian Genealogicals Record," by Trafford R. Cole, published by Ancestry
in 1995, is an excellent book, giving a detailed look at all records that
can be used in Italian research and how they may be accessed. This book has
the addresses of the state archives of each province.
Hope this helps a little.

Regina Hines Ellison

At 01:00 AM 7/12/01 -0600, you wrote:
>APG-D DigestVolume 01 : Issue 204
>
>Today's Topics:
> #1 Re: [APG] Billing question continu ["Connie Bradbury"
<]
> #2 Re: [APG] Re: Billing question con ["Connie Bradbury"
<]
> #3 [APG] Billing questions, etc. [Michael Neill
<]
> #4 [APG] 2001 Draft for FGS Conferenc [Michael Neill
<]
> #5 [APG] Italian Census Records ["NATHAN MATHEWS"
<]
> #6 Re: [APG] Re: Billing question con ["Barbara O'Nan"
<]
> #7 [APG] Billing question continued [Sandra Shafer
<]
> #8 Re: [APG] Re: Billing question con ["Amy Johnson Crow"
<]
>
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>______________________________X-Message: #1
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 08:53:50 -0800
>From: "Connie Bradbury" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <01b701c10a2a$3399b4a0$>
>Subject: Re: [APG] Billing question continued
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>This has been an excellent discussion and has pointed out things that I
>"knew" about the cost of doing business but sometimes ignore.
>
>Even though some may consider the discussion regarding charges for
>photocopies trivial (no one said that but someone might be thinking it!) the
>amount adds up very quickly. Here are somethings I do to keep the costs
>down and still have a client file after the client has received their
>information and the file is closed.
>
>I only make one copy at the library, or archives. The costs are usually 10
>cents for a photocopy and 25 cents for film or fiche copy. Then I stop at a
>Kinko-like shop on my way home and make another set for my file. They
>charge sometimes as little as 3 cents a copy.
>
>If whatever I am copying can be removed to another location, I made an
>arrangement with some friends who have a business that if I supply the paper
>I can make copies at their establishment for 3 cents! We just keep a log
>and when I have made 500 copies, I bring them a ream of paper and pay my
>bill. (I also use them for making handouts for classes I teach.)
>
>This only works if it is convenient. It happens to be very convenient for
>me as it is a straight shot from my house past the photocopy shop, past my
>friends' business to either the library or the archives. Yes, there is some
>time involved and I sometimes have to weight the pros and cons.
>
>Doing this for one or two copies isn't cost or time efficient, but for
>larger amounts, it is.
>
>BUT, I charge the client a standard charge for photocopies - 10 cents a copy
>and 25 cents a copy for film or fiche copies.
>
>This doesn't seem to be any different that charging a client for every phone
>call placed, even if there is no answer! What do you think about that one?
>
>Connie
>
>______________________________X-Message: #2
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:07:58 -0800
>From: "Connie Bradbury" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <01f201c10a2c$0ced4680$>
>Subject: Re: [APG] Re: Billing question continued
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Rick:
>
>Well said.
>
>I do a number of "one shot deals" and I know I will probably never hear from
>the client again. For those I do not keep copies of anything except the
>original request and my report which lists the documents enclosed.
>
>I had a stamp made that says, "No copy of this document has been retained by
>the researcher."
>
>Then, in my cover letter I point out that copies of most of the material has
>not been retained by me and mentioning the stamped message; that if they
>have any questions it will be necessary for them to quote from the record or
>mail or fax me a copy.
>
>Maybe this is tacky but for these one-shot-deals, I just cannot justify the
>cost of the copies nor the file space.
>
>As a specific example, I am a subcontractor for a researcher writing a
>family history for a client. He is in Utah and I am in Alaska. I order the
>records, review them, comment on them, and send them on. I just received
>copies of probate files - the cost of photocopying was $40.00. For sure I
>am not going to make copies for my files.
>
>Everything I put in the mail goes priority with request for delivery receipt
>( a cost passed on) and I fax him that it was mailed that day.
>
>I've not had anything lost yet, knock on wood.
>
>Connie
>
>______________________________X-Message: #3
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:39:32 -0500
>From: Michael Neill <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <.>
>Subject: [APG] Billing questions, etc.
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>This discussion has been most informative.
>
>I have been working on a series on "hiring a professional" which is to be an
>extended series in the Ancestry Daily News. A part of this series will
>concentrate on what to expect from a "fee-based" researcher and includes a
>brief discussion of charges, etc., which is what caused me to respond to
>this thread (obviously not in as much detail as has been done here). If any
>listmembers have issues or points they would like to see addressed (if
>possible), feel free to send them to me. I won't quote anyone without asking
>first and will reply to as many comments as I can. (If I can't send a
>personal reply, I promise I won't send a "canned" one...VBG!)
>
>I do agree that there is much we can do to enhance the image of
>professionalism within our community. Great strides have been made though
>since I hired my first researcher in the mid 1980s and since I did research
>for others at that same time.
>
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>-----
>
>______________________________X-Message: #4
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:51:56 -0500
>From: Michael Neill <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <.>
>Subject: [APG] 2001 Draft for FGS Conference Booth Workers
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>I'm writing in my capacity as APG booth chair for the 2001 FGS Conference in
>Davenport, Iowa.
>
>I'm looking for volunteers to man the APG booth in the exhibit hall. We are
>looking forward to bringing America's genealogists to Davenport and we are
>expecting a good turnout for this conference in the Quad Cities.
>
>Your only real job at the booth is to answer questions about APG, the
>advantages of membership and how membership and a focus on professionalism
>brings personal pride, recognition, and hopefully an impact on your bottom
>line. You won't have to answer questions about Davenport or where to find
>things in the Quad Cities (although personally I think everyone should know
>how to find Whitey's Ice Cream).
>
>We'd really appreciate volunteers to serve their tour of duty at the booth
>if possible. Working the booth can be a good way to get to know another
>member and potential members as well. The schedule is available at:
>
>http://www.rootdig.com/apgbooth.html
>
>When you're ready to volunteer, send me an email at:
>
>subject line APG Booth
>
>I'll add you to the online schedule as soon as I can. If you don't want your
>name to show up on the online schedule, let me know and I'll simply indicate
>that someone has volunteered for that time slot.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Michael
>
>----------------------
>Michael John Neill
>
>FGS 2001 APG Booth "Chair"
>National Publicity Co-Chair FGS 2001-Davenport, Iowa
>
>______________________________X-Message: #5
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:35:33 -0700
>From: "NATHAN MATHEWS" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <000c01c10a59$cc76f640$>
>Subject: [APG] Italian Census Records
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Where in the US can I read Italian Census Records? I believe they begin
in 1851 or 1861. I have been attempting to locate microfilm copies. Do
they exist and if so, are they available in this country? Nathan Mathews
>
>______________________________X-Message: #6
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:35:38 -0700
>From: "Barbara O'Nan" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <000e01c10a59$e7ab12c0$>
>Subject: Re: [APG] Re: Billing question continued
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>One of the first purchases I made when I started researching for clients was
>a Xerox copy machine. After figuring the cost of toner, paper, etc. I
>determined the cost of each copy [several years ago] to be about .03 cents.
>I make copies of the documents I plan to send to the client at the research
>facility where I find the information, and charge the client the actual cost
>of the copies. From those copies, I make copies for my files on my home
>copy machine before I send the report. I do not charge the client for my
>file copies.
>
>Most of us now use computers to type and print our reports. Equipment
>purchases, toner, paper, etc. are items we need to do business. Since we
>must supply the client with a report of our findings, most of us are
>probably including the value of our time and supplies for the report in our
>hourly rates. We are probably also printing two copies of the client report
>on our laser printers; one for the client and one for our own files. I
>doubt we are charging our clients the cost of printing an extra copy of
>their report for our files.
>
>>From my personal viewpoint, I feel my copy machine is a necessary piece of
>equipment. Since basic copy machines are now so reasonably priced, it might
>be one way of reducing costs without having to raise rates or charge our
>clients for extra copies.
>
>Barbara O'Nan in Ky
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fredric Z. Saunders" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:40 AM
>Subject: [APG] Re: Billing question continued
>
>
>> >She decided that there was no reason to raise hourly rates for every
>>client, just because a percentage of her clients have large copy expenses
>>associated with them.
>>
>> I agree with you.
>>
>> Whether a person chooses to include file copies as a part of their
>business expense, [because they never make very many copies???] and charge
>every client a higher fee to cover those costs, or chooses to charge a lower
>hourly fee, and charge each individual client only the copy costs involved
>with their research, I don't see a problem as long as it is clear to the
>client before research begins.
>>
>> Copy costs (both for client and file) can vary widely between research
>projects. I personally view it as a doctor would an x-ray or lab tests.
>Rather than charge a higher fee and charge every customer for x-rays and lab
>tests whether they get them or not, charge each person only for what x-rays
>or tests [in this case photocopies] they get. The genealogist's file copies
>of documents benefit the client in the same way that the x-ray and lab tests
>which the doctor keeps [and put in their files] benefit the patient. The may
>never be needed again, but they provide a basis for future research if they
>need to be reexamined.
>>
>> I'll apoligize if what follows steps on some toes, but previous comments
>on this list bothered [and still bother] me. Would anyone go to a doctor
>who said "We didn't keep a copy of the lab test results we ran last month.
>Can you give us the copy we gave you? No? Then we'll run the test again and
>charge you a second time." I doubt anyone would see that doctor again.
>That doctor would reflect badly on the whole profession.
>>
>> When a genealogist [with or without initials after their name] asks the
>client for a copy of something they sent them, or recharges them to do the
>same work [which I consider unethical] just because they didn't keep a file
>copy, I feel it reflects badly on the profession as a whole. Perhaps the
>different credentialing bodies need to consider making education and/or
>demonstrated understanding of basic business practices a part of receiving
>those credentials.
>>
>> Demonstrating competence to do the genealogy work is only half the
>profession. The other half is how they run their business. As many clients
>are probably lost through the way with which they are dealt, as through bad
>research. Excluding the out-and-out charlatans, how often do you hear
>someone complain about the quality of the research? Most often the
>complaints that I have heard from clients and acquaintances regarding other
>professionals they have hired is not with unprofessional research but
>unprofessionalism in the way they run their business. This includes:
>> 1. Not delivering the report when promised. [This is undoubtedly the
>biggest complaint I hear about others].
>> 2. Not responding to correpondence. [Not the daily pestering type, but the
>type, "what is the status of my report I was promised a month ago?"]
>> 3. Constant excuses of why they have to keep postponig the research.
>> 4. Rudeness
>> 5. Promising more than can be delivered, whether in terms of time devoted
>to their project, or in terms of what records they have access to.
>> 6. Questionable business practices, which would include things as above
>in asking a client for a copy of something already sent them, or billing
>them a second time to do the exact same research.
>>
>> Rick Saunders
>> http://genealogypro.com/fsaunders.html
>>
>>
>> ==== APG Mailing List ====
>> The Association of Professional Genealogists
>>
>
>______________________________X-Message: #7
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:45:42 -0400
>From: Sandra Shafer <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <>
>Subject: [APG] Billing question continued
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Disposition: inline
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>This has been an interesting thread but one item that has been ignored is
>the cost of postage to mail all those copies!
>
>The excellent example given of 100 copies plus file copies etc. can be
>further extended to the fact that mailing 100 copies would include about
>15.5 oz (depending on the wt of the paper used) plus the weight of the 9x12
>envelope, the report etc. It does sound petty but if a researcher is only
>charging a few dollars an hour, that kind of cost -- especially overseas
>postage -- can sink you.
>
>One way around this is to include some factor for postage in the price of
>the copies. For example, a #10 envelope and about 5 sheets of paper can go
>on one $0.34 stamp but as soon as you need to use the more expensive 9x12
>envelopes for more sheets than that, the postage goes up dramatically. You
>can be left standing at the post office after mailing your last report to
>the client and wondering what happened.
>
>I'm reminded of the children's song, ... a penny for a spool of thread, a
>penny for a needle, that's the way the money goes, pop! goes the weasel....
>
>
>Sandra Shafer
>
>______________________________X-Message: #8
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:52:11 -0400
>From: "Amy Johnson Crow" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <00f801c10a4b$642ed3e0$>
>Subject: Re: [APG] Re: Billing question continued
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>>>I just received copies of probate files - the cost of photocopying was
>$40.00. For sure I am not going to make copies for my files.<<
>
>That is the one file that I would be *certain* to make a copy for my files!
>The replacement cost would far exceed the cost of making a photocopy from
>your own copier (or even from a local copy shop).
>
>By far the best investment I ever made in office equipment was my copier. I
>can adjust the contrast and can enlarge or reduce the size of the copy. I
>just sent a Civil War pension file to a client; I made my file copy on
>letter size paper, rather than the legal size that was sent to me.
>
>Amy
>
>==========
>Amy Johnson Crow, CG
>Reynoldsburg, Ohio
>
>

This thread:

• [APG] Re: APG-D Digest V01 #204 by Regina Ellison <>