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Archiver > APG > 2006-05 > 1146784043


From: Mary Jane Smith <>
Subject: Re: APG-D Digest V06 #140: "Coat of Arms"
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 19:16:33 -0400
References: <200605030300.k43302f0002881@lists2.rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <200605030300.k43302f0002881@lists2.rootsweb.com>


I quite agree with Mr. McLaren having provided genealogical
documentation for a client in support of his request to the College
of Arms for Letters Patent of Armorial Bearings from the College of
Arms in London. The process is lengthy, requiring extensive
genealogical research documenting the individual's descent from a
person who was, in this case, a British subject prior to the Treaty
of Paris (1783). The applicant is assigned a "Herald" who works with
the applicant in presenting the case after the documentation is
submitted. After various levels of approval, the application is
approved -- or not. If approved, a design may be developed by the
herald according to what is included in the applicant's history and
some requested design elements from the applicant. The design must
be original and requires extensive validation to ensure its
originality. Did I mention that it is expensive?

This is now the second year of my client's application; he has been
accepted, the design is drawn, approved, nearing final form, and we
are in the last stages before his "investiture." In the meantime, I
am preparing to write a family history for him, a most interesting family.

So, it is possible for Americans -- with certain early ancestors --
to acquire legitimate "Arms." It is a far cry from the "coats of
arms" developed by commercial houses here in the U.S. On the other
hand, I suppose it depends on ones purpose in seeking such a which.

Mary Jane

At 11:00 PM 5/2/2006, you wrote:
>X-Message: #14
>Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 20:10:29 -0400
>From: "robert mclaren" <>
>To:
>Message-ID: <>
>Subject: RE: [APG] Heraldic bucket shops
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Chad,
>
>I'm sorry, but I cannot agree that you should get your client a "coat of
>arms". These are personal property, not family "coat of arms". For example,
>I (and my Clan Chief) would be greatly offended if you helped a client get
>a copy of the MacLaren coat of arms. These arms belong to Donald MacLaren
>of MacLaren and no one else.
>
>My advice -- steer clear of having anything to do with "coat of arms". The
>only exception would be if your client wanted an actual grant of arms from,
>for example, the Lord Lyon (who has responsibility for all Scottish arms).
>He would have to prove his right to be granted arms which would require
>detailed genealogical research; however, the cost for a grant is quite high
>(in addition to the cost for the research).
>
>Yours aye,
>
>Bob McLaren
>Chairman, Genealogy Committee, Clan MacLaren Society of North America
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Chad Milliner <>
> > To: <>
> > Date: 5/2/2006 7:36:40 PM
> > Subject: [APG] Heraldic bucket shops
> >
> > I have been trying to determine what companies out there ultimately own
>or license the various "coats of arms" websites and mall bucket shops that
>are out there. It loooks like the biggest fish is Swyrich --
>http://www.swyrich.com. Their website "free sample" includes the "ancient
>arms" for my surname, which is ridiculous, since no one with my surname was
>ever granted arms. It appears that they show me the coat of arms of a
>Milner grant, which is kinda-sorta reasonable, since my surname originally
>probably was Milner, but what they claim to be selling is a "Milliner" coat
>of arms, not a "Milner" coat of arms and that is not right, even if you
>don't take into account the fact that Swrich is perpetuating the family
>coat of arms myth.
> >
> > I guess what I am asking is -- if a client has their heart set on a "coat
>of arms" even after being properly taught about how little value they
>actually have, is there some other company out there other than Swyrich to
>refer them to? Ideally, what I would like to get for a client would be a
>coat of arms that included the full achievement (the supporters, the motto,
>the crest, not just the shield), included the textual blazon (and
>accurately followed that blazon for their artwork), and noted when that
>grant of arms was made and the person to whom the grant was made.
> >
> > I realize that there are artists out there who could do a fine job for a
>client on a custom basis, but if a client's budget can't afford that, other
>than Swyrich, what else is there?
> >

Mary Jane Frances Smith,
V.P., NIGR Alumni Asso.
Genealogist and Writer,
Family History

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