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Archiver > AUS-SAGEN > 2003-09 > 1063773370


From: Gil Hardwick <>
Subject: Re: [AUS-SAGEN] Catholic/Protestant
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:36:10 +0800
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030915180330.02cc5a80@mail.giant.net.au><6.0.0.22.0.20030916152604.027cc2a0@mail.highway1.com.au><3F678369.E277F274@ozemail.com.au>
In-Reply-To: <3F678369.E277F274@ozemail.com.au>


At 05:40 AM 17/09/03, Pam wrote:
>Hello Gil, Cheryl and other Listers, Re the question of Catholics /
>Protestants worshipping indiscriminately I think one would need to be
>quite specific about the time period under consideration. In the very
>earliest days this may have been possible and perhaps in very small
>isolated communities later in the nineteenth century but there was a
>great deal of animosity between these two groups of christians. I know
>Broken Hill was deeply divided on religious lines in the late nineteenth
>and early twentieth century. Even during the fifties when I was a child
>the public school kids and the catholic kids in Gawler would bully,
>scrape, scratch and brawl while waiting for the busses. Why? the
>animosity had to have come from home. Hopefully this period has passed.
>Re Gil's problem of Catholics worshipping as Lutherans I think that is a
>major change.

Hi Pam,

I cannot disagree with you as to these details, only with your
interpretation. Suffice here that from about the late 1860s the
issue was beaten up as religious differences, which tended to
prevail until about the 1930s. I am well aware myself of some
residual resentments into the 1950s.

Closer examination, however, reveals that the real divisions
at that time were over Ireland, merely expressed as religious
differences. Don't forget that until that time the history as was
being taught in Australian schools was English history, and
a lot of us only learned of what really happened through word
of mouth at home, within our own families.

It was simply the case that Irish resentment by that time had
been predominantly Catholic, whereas during the early period
there had been a great deal of unity among Catholics and the
various nonconforming denominations in Ireland, and in particular
the actively dissenting Presbyterians, against English policy in
Ireland.

There is a mistaken belief these days that there were Catholics
on the one hand and Protestants on the other, where in fact it
was only the Established Churches of England and Ireland who
were Protestant. I have even heard it mention that before that
there were only Catholics, where the other Nonconformist and
Dissident denominations had existed since the time of Christ,
while Rome was still Pagan, and then alongside the Roman or
Ultramontane Church itself from about the 4thC AD.

The common concern throughout Insular North East Europe
during the period in question was with the Established Church
which came into being through the constitutional reforms under
Henry VIII, which as you know enjoyed Crown patronage, large
land grants and stipends, and numerous other privileges at the
Catholic's expense in particular, but no less Presbyterian.

By the period in question most of the active nonconformists and
dissenters had been driven out, and had already settled in the
Americas, Australia and New Zealand in particular, leaving behind
an impoverished Irish rural population who copped the worst of the
Great Famine, and who tended to be Catholic anyway.

It was those post-Famine Irish Catholics finally here in Australia
themselves primarily involved in the bullying and scrapping as
described above, but the same happened in the Americas and
everywhere else they went. Those poor people had been through
hell and I have a great deal of sympathy for their plight, but by the
same token it had never been a Catholic/Protestant thing beyond
that beaten up by the English establishment. It was political.

It has to be said that there was a big effort by Rome during that
same period to retain a toehold in Ireland as well, and among the
Irish out here in the Antipodes, thus the arrival of Daniel Mannix
who as Gough Whitlam has correctly stated was at heart Irish
Nationalist not Australian, or indeed Australian Catholic in quite
the same style as the earlier pioneer stock.

During the period in question there was also a significant Irish
Catholic influence in the Trade Union movement, the Communist
Party, and indeed the Labor Party itself. But again that was not
because of their religious beliefs but because they were being
exploited economically and oppressed politically.

My primary concern here is that such differences have been for
too long presented to us as religious differences, when they were
not. Once that dreadful political pressure was lifted things returned
to normal very quickly indeed as ordinary people everywhere simply
went back to getting on with their lives.

Here in Australia, further, with the Italians and Yugoslavs and others
arriving during the post-WW2 migration period a very different style
of Catholism presented itself that had nothing whatever to do with
Ireland, and that as much as anything helped to heal the wounds.

Sorry for such a long rave. I do not intend to be "political" about this
merely pursuing my obligation as a scholar to get the facts right. In
fact there is still a lot of arguing in my own family about it that I still
today try to avoid.

It is very important however for anyone delving into the period for
whatever reason, although I suggest particularly seeking lost family
members, to understand what was actually going on then.

Otherwise it becomes next to impossible to trace them, or learn of
their circumstances and their fate.

Kindest regards,

Gil


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