AUS-Tasmania-L Archives

Archiver > AUS-Tasmania > 2006-03 > 1141599420


From: "Carol" <>
Subject: Re: Lemon and Brown
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 09:57:00 +1100
References: <29864044.1141549635719.JavaMail.root@web10ps>


Dear Garry and all who've contibuted to this discussion.
Firstly, our emails have crossed re. the Launceston Historical Sociey
website's material. I have spoken to John Dent, and he has been most
helpful.
I have several things to add, now that I have been given so much new
material. Firstly, the account at the Bendigo website, from Bonwick, is so
inaccurate, written only a few years after the demise of Lemon and Brown,
that I wrote to the Webmaster,. He then asked me to write the "true"
account, to be posted alongside Bonwick's version. I am in the process of
doing so, and thus began to research Lemon and Brown themselves.
Garry, you have added to my picture of events at Port Dalrymple
considerably, as have many others. The only additional piece of information
I can add is the following from Bill, in Geelong:

John BROWN
Coromandel 2- 05/1804 [With Lemon murdered 4 people at PD; executed
31/05/1808 Sydney

SCANLAN Richard
Atlas 2 - 10/1802
Murdered 1807 by LEMON

LEMON
Not mentioned individually.

I also went to the library yesterday, and looked up John Dent's HRA
references, as well as the references listed in John West's 'The History of
Tasmania" and and found a list of the other convicts who had absconded from
PD, and had joined Lemon and Brown for a time. If anyone is interested,
please contact me off list. (I had already gone through Knopwood's
references to Duff, Jones, as well as "my" Michael Mansfield.)

I also have a letter written by Michael in 1827, which gives his version of
events, as well: it's held at the Tas. Archives. (Once again, please
contact me off-list if you're interested.)

The last snippet I have comes from Fawkner's unpublished "Reminiscences",
held in the State Library of Victoria in Melboune. Here it is:
'About the end of the year 1807 two men made their appearance at the out
farms and joined some of our Kangaroo hunters they gave their name as Lemon
and Brown bushrangers, they were from Port Dalrymple and were the first
persons who travelled overland they came round by the East and South coast.
They were two memorable men by their crimes I put their history here though
their capture by M Mansfield and Jack from London took place subsequently.'
So, I'm not sure whether "Jack" from London was Duff or Jones, but I assume
it was Jones. Interestingly, Jones was listed as being among the convict
absconders from Sorrento in 1803, and in Hobart both prior to, and after the
Lemon and Brown episode.

And, lastly, I found two "John Jones" listed on a Calcutta list I have: can
anyone confirm this? It makes life just a little more difficult.......

Best wishes,

Carol.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garry Wilson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: Lemon and Brown


> Irene, Carol, Peter, Chris
>
> Yes, my discussion on convicts to PD was not meant to draw any distinction
> between men and women as such and the various sailings of the Kangaroo and
> Elizabeth Henrietta etc included the usual (?) proportions of women and
> yes, as Irene says, PD was not all that different in set up to Hobart.
>
> Carol, I'm not sure what you have on Lemon etc at this stage and there is
> very little extant material for the time frame between 1804 and 1811 in PD
> (as everyone is acutely aware) and even afterwards with less musters
> surviving and no permanent minister to record bdms until John Youl settled
> permanently at the end of 1819.
>
> The yet to be published book on early Port Dalrymple will be a boon to
> researchers of this period. (thanks John, Alma !)
>
> For what it's worth all I have on Lemon et al at this stage is the
> following:
>
> Richard Lemon arrived PJ per the Coromandel I (2) on 7 May 1804. He
> appears in the 1806 muster (ie around early August) in PJ where he is a
> prisoner in Government employ at Parramatta.
>
> At this stage I am unaware which ship transferred him to Port Dalrymple
> but there were only a couple of possibilities as he was killed 1 March
> 1808 after a relatively short but infamous run. Although the Sophia
> arrived 1 August 1806 at PD that is really precluded since by rights he
> was still in PJ at the muster (altho sometimes these dates get confusingly
> blurred and people don't seem to be mustered where logic tells you should
> be).
>
> Anyway that leaves only the Estramina which went down to PD arriving July
> 1807. As far as I can tell the next vessel to carry convicts (as I
> presume the vessels on whaling excursions did not do so) would have been
> the Porpoise which arrived PD in April 1808 after Lemon was dead. So
> there weren't many vessels and logically, if he went down to PD directly
> (which I'm not sure he did), then he must have gone on the Estramina in
> July 1807. There was slightly more shipping in that period to Hobart and
> he may well have gone there first and been taken overland etc or on some
> really "local vessel", neither of which is a high probability in my view.
> Remember this was very early on and everything was a) primitive and b)
> fairly ad hoc and disorganised or at least with far less pattern than
> appeared later.
>
> Besides, its a while since I read his story and maybe he only ended up in
> Port Dalrymple because of his bushranging exploits altho I have him in my
> database at Port Dalrymple so that suggests to me that I had convinced
> myself that he operated from there, rather than Hobart.
>
> Well there you go, just found an article on the web from the "way back
> when" series in the Launceston Examiner Jan 2004, written by none other
> than John Dent, whose work on early PD with Alma Rantzen is to be
> published later this year we hear.
>
> John has concluded, or possibly has evidence (?) that Lemon was
> transferred to Port Dalrymple on the Estramina in 1807. Please be aware
> that he may not have evidence as the shipping lists are virtually non
> existent for this period and it may be that he has only concluded, as I
> have, that the Estramina is the most likely possibility. Indeed it may
> have been the subject of one of our discussions that lead him to take the
> same view as we have shared some observations over the past few years.
>
> So I won't bore you with what I was going on about, as his article is
> quite useful.
>
> see http://www.elaunceston.com/launcestonhistory/2004/bushrangers.htm
>
> The point is that whilst both John Brown and Lemon came on the same vessel
> to PJ, Brown went down early with Patterson at the end of 1804 on the
> Buffalo, Lemon however was not sent down until later as discussed.
>
> The only thing I would clarify is that Lemon and Brown could not have
> absconded and gone bushranging "early" in 1807 since Lemon did not arrive
> until July 1807, if indeed the Estramina is the correct vessel. Mind you,
> Brown might have already been out and about by himself early in 1807.
>
> For what its worth Richard Scanlon came to PJ per Atlas II on 30/10/1802
> and was transferred apparently to PD sometime between 1805 and 1806. He
> does not appear in the 1806 muster in PJ and he was not in the first or
> second sailings of the Buffalo. There are basically three or four
> possibilities, the Estramina 5/12/1805, the Estramina (again!) Feb 1806 or
> the Venus on 5 June 1806, or even the Sophia Aug 1806.
>
> John Morey arrived PJ per the infamous Hillsborough in 1799 and like
> Scanlon was transfered to PD in the same period, hence the same likely
> vessels.
>
> Mansfield and Parish were of course free settlers per the Ocean 1803 and
> Jones and Duff had been convicts per Calcutta (and although there are
> discrepencies, both appear to have been tried in 1800 and consequently
> with 7 year sentences were both free when the Lemon episode took place in
> 1808. These four all have biographies/or sections on them in Marjory
> Tipping's Convicts unbound. Parish's story is quite an interesting one,
> as he had actually been in NSW before returning on the Ocean (convict per
> Alexander 1788).
>
> I have Mollie Gillen's "Founders of Australia" in front of me as I write
> and she has not recognised that he returned to the UK and came out again
> on the Calcutta (simply because he ended up back in NSW so there is just a
> gap from her perspective). On the other hand, whilst I don't have
> Tipping's book in front of me, I have a strong suspicion that she too did
> not make the connection, and that she did not recognise he had been the
> first fleeter!
>
> The clue that helps make it all fall out, is found in the 1811 muster for
> Hobart where Phoebe Parish (his wife) is listed as a former convict per
> the Lady Penrhyn. There is of course no person of that name on that ship
> but her details not surprisingly match Pheobe Norton, who of course
> married William Parish (under his recognised alias of Potter) in NSW in
> Feb 1788. She had rejoined him in Hobart after arriving from NSW per the
> Sophia in Feb 1805. Looking at the movements in total betwen the UK, PJ
> and Hobart, including the names of sons with very useful names like James
> Norton Parish should not leave anybody in doubt. That the NSW family
> family is none other than the VDL family.
>
> As an aside, it is an interesting exercise to postulate just who of the
> Calcutta/Ocean convicts and settlers might have already been here in NSW
> beforehand.
>
> I have my suspicions still about one or two but we know for certain now
> that besides David Collins himself, at least William Parish, John
> Blinkworth and Samuel Lightfoot all came again for the second time. But I
> digress as usual.
>
> Carol, I hope that helps a bit.
>
> Regards
>
> Garry
>
>
>
> Date: [Sun, 5 Mar 2006 09:13:14 +1100]
> From: Irene Schaffer <>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: [AUS-Tas] Convicts at Port Dalrymple.
>
>
> Dear Carol and list,
> From the replies received Carol you now
> have
> some idea of convicts being sent to Port Dalrymple. Thought you might like
> to know that there were convict women who were also sent there. In 1812
> the
> Lady Nelson brought 13 women and 31 men (most of these men were lifers and
> being got rid of from Sydney because of their bad characters) I have also
> discovered that there was a female child under one year old on board.
>
> The 1807 General Statement of inhabitants for both Hobart and Port
> Dalrymple
> show simular set ups for both places and I think they were being conducted
> the same way (page 47 in Land Musters) Port Dalrymple had 112 men (free
> and
> convicts) and Hobart had 276. Port Dalrymple had 23 women, (free and
> convicts) and Hobart had 55. Total Port Dalrymple 258, Hobart 488.
>
> There must be books on bushrangers that can help you with Lemon etc. Can't
> help you there sorry.
>
> Regards
>
>
> Irene
>
> Email:
> Website: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~schafferi
> (including Norfolk Island and Van Diemens Land list)
>
>
> Subject: [AUS-Tas] Convicts at Port Dalrymple.
>
>
>> Dear All,
>> Is anyone aware of a list of the convicts transported to Port Dalrymple
> prior to 1808? I'm woefully ignorant of the northern settlement's early
> days, and haven't found much on the Net. I also have a stack of history
> books, but once again, have found virtually nothing. I'm very interested
> in
> the bushrangers Richard Lemon and John Brown and ? Scanlan, particularly.
>> I've learnt that Patterson was directly answerable to Sydney, and that
>> the
> Investigator left N.I. in March 1805, and the Buffalo arrived a little
> later.
>> Was the 'set up' similar to Hobart? Convicts working for the Crown and
> Military and free settlers?
>> Any snippets or references would be most appreciated,
>> Best wishes,
>> carol Brill.
>>
>>
>> ==== AUS-Tasmania Mailing List ====
>> AUS-Tasmania Mailing List Information
>> Follow the link to Mailing List
>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~austashs/
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________

This thread: