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Archiver > AZORES > 2004-10 > 1097944214


From: "Ricardo Costa de Oliveira" <>
Subject: Re: [AZORES] botar ?
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:30:20 -0300
References: <1b9.39d3655.2ea19f43@cs.com> <005c01c4b37a$bc5b5260$5733b0c8@ctb.virtua.com.br> <7edbd33204101608001449ce81@mail.gmail.com>


Caro GR

We are the lusitanos descendants, also and primarily(because we have become
the main bean). The lusitanos core is no longer in Europe, neither the
language's core is at Galiza or Minho, but the portuguese's language hard
core in terms of universities, midia, science, technology, literature, books
printing and so on is nowadays located in a 500 km range from São Paulo,
embracing Rio de Janeiro, Belo Horizonte, Curitiba. Our forefathers came to
this land with our language, state, institutions, cultures and guns. They
brought the indians, black slaves and other europeans migrants into our
society, and we have been speaking our language since the 11th century, the
same time as in Portugal. The only difference is that we are 18 times bigger
and portuguese is a world class language related to this fact.

Um abraço

Ricardo



----- Original Message -----
From: "G R" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AZORES] botar ?


In every language there are always two forms of writing and speaking.

The erudite form, learned in the scholar system and the popular one
from people with almost no studies or illiterate.

"Botar" is a "popular" form of:

Conjugar


do Prov. botar, impelir
v. tr. e int.,
lançar, deitar, atirar;
pôr, usar;
embotar;

v. int.,
desdobrar;
estender-se;

v. refl.,
lançar-se, arremessar-se;
dirigir-se.

I beg to disagree that Brazil "commands" the Portuguese language,
something that is from Portugal and Brazil as once part of their
Empire inherited. Brazil has the biggest number of Portuguese speaking
population in the World, but the "command" of the language still
belongs to its country of origin, Portugal.
I know of several "acordos culturais" between Portugal and all the
Portuguese speaking countries to create a standard and avoid the
problems that exists with English. I also know that the weight of the
Brazilian population is so big that it almost forced Portugal to
change parts of its language (wich I do not recognize or follow) but
that does not mean it "commands" anything that is, since the 11
century the language of the Lusitanian's peoples

GR


On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 09:21:58 -0300, Ricardo Costa de Oliveira
<> wrote:
> Caro John Miranda Raposo
>
> Interessante observação a do botar ! Botou uma curiosa questão na sala!
> The linguistic history of portuguese is complex. Those who speak
portuguese
> in the unbroken chain of generations are the model of the evolution of the
> language. Portuguese has changed faster in Europe than in Brazil and it
> means that brazilian portuguese is closer to the 16th century portuguese,
or
> camonian portuguese, than the european one. You can read Camões with a
> brazilian accent an with an european accent and everybody will recognize
the
> one that matches best (the brazilian one).
> I have a full azorean matrilinear line. My mithocondrial DNA came from the
> Azores, Ilha Terceira. Women are very important components of language
> teaching ! In fact we use the verbs botar and buscar in our colloquial
> portuguese. Brazil rules the portuguese language (180 millions in 210
> millions !)
>
> Abraços
> Ricardo Costa de Oliveira
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 6:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [AZORES] Carlos Machado Genealogies now available
>
> > In a message dated 10/15/2004 12:49:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> > > Now, I do understand Portuguese and my husband would speak to my
parents
> > > in Portuguese. When I first met his parents (25 years ago), I could
not
> > > understand a word they were saying. It took me years to understand
the
> > > Azorean dialect. My husband has been able to adapt his Portuguese,
but
> > > I find when he is speaking to someone from the Azores, his dialect
> > > changes.
> > Let us be clear on the term "dialect" as it applies to languages: It is
a
> > form of speech peculiar to a district; a variation of a language with
> nonstandard
> > vocabulary, pronunciation or idioms; any language in relation to the
> language
> > family to which it belongs.
> >
> > Now, Portuguese spoken in the Azores (even with the different
> pronunciations
> > of the various islands (e.g., the pronunciations on S. Miguel, Terceira,
> > Faial, etc.) is still standard, written Portuguese, just like that of
the
> mainland.
> > There are expressions in vocabulary which are considered archaic, but
> still
> > correct, even on mainland Portugal, (e.g., the words "bulha" , "butar",
> > "ilharga" "buscar" instead of barulho, por, ao lado de and procurar).
You
> will find
> > those words in any good Portuguese dictionary and in the novels of
> Arquilino
> > Ribeiro from the north of Portugal, where many of those so- called
Azorean
> > terms are still in use by the common folk.
> >
> > My brother-in-law is from Minho. When I first met him 20 years ago, I
> could
> > barely understand him. However, it wasn't because he was speaking a
> dialect. He
> > was speaking the Portuguese as spoken by the common folk of his region.
I
> > just had to adjust my ear. The only place I know of, where a genuine
> "dialect" is
> > spoken, is on the border between northern Portugal and Spanish Galicia.
> > Galego is a genuine dialect. Cabo Verde, which is no longer Portuguese,
> speaks
> > "Creolo" which is a Portuguese dialect. I am told that there is a
dialect
> "Calão"
> > which is supposed to be a dialect of Catalan, and Portuguese, but I'm
not
> sure
> > that it is recognized as a genuine dialect.
> >
> > I've always taken hombrage when someone suggests that Azoreans speak a
> > dialect. They don't; they speak Portuguese with an Azorean accent, just
> like New
> > Englanders and Mississippians speak English albeit with very different
> accents
> > that may make communication somewhat difficult until the ear adjusts to
> the
> > regional, (dare I say?) "dialect."
> >
> > I hope this helps.
> >
> > John Miranda Raposo
> >
>
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