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Archiver > BIRD > 2004-01 > 1074189840


From: "Steven Bird" <>
Subject: Re: [BIRD-L] DNA project; anyone interested - response
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:04:00 -0500


Hello Helen,

I don't doubt your qualifications, but I am confused by your line of
reasoning. If two male individuals named BIRD have a known descent which is
proved by normal (BMD) genealogical records, and those two males have their
Y-chromosome markers compared, and those two Y-chromosomes match exactly,
then how does this not prove that these two men have the same male ancestor?
In my case, I can document my ancestry in the Bird line for eleven
generations (both father and mother) and have full evidence to support the
line. My earliest known Bird ancestor was Thomas Bird of Hartford, CT, who
died in 1662.

If another male person, say a descendant of Thomas Bird of Dorchester, MA
(1613-1667), were to compare Y-chromosomes with me, and there was an exact
match, I would be inclined to say that the chances were extremely high that
we had a male ancestor in common. On the other hand, if there was a
significant difference in the haplotype, it would suggest that the two men
were not related.

When I am dealing with records from 400 years ago, many of which no longer
exist, this type of study might offer the possibility of narrowing the field
a bit in terms of ancestry candidates. There is a high probability that
Thomas Bird of Hartford immigrated from Braintree, Essex or nearby that
cloth-making town. According to a well-known family history book on the
ancestry and descent of Joseph Loomis, also of Braintree, the church records
in Braintree, Essex prior to about 1664 were burned by a sexton during the
19th c., who used them as starter fuel for St. Michael's furnace. He didn't
think that anyone would care about them because they were old.

It's likely that my ancestor's birth and marriage records were in that book.
They are therefore no longer extant. Facing such a lack of evidence, the
idea of a DNA study to identify the haplotype of some of the Bird family
branches doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me. This doesn't seem any
more foolish than ordering pages copied from records at the Essex Records
Office in the hope that one might provide a clue to Thomas Bird's origins,
at four or five dollars a page. If it turned out that Thomas of Hartford
and Thomas of Dorchester were related, it might be very useful in narrowing
the field of possible candidates for the immigrant's family in England.

The Rice Association seems to have found some value in this type of test.
Indeed, one of their members (the one who headed up the study) is a
biologist and is quite well versed in the use of DNA for this purpose. They
are cautiously optimistic about the results.



Steven Bird, DMA






>From: "Helen" <>
>To: "Steven Bird" <>
>Subject: Re: [BIRD-L] DNA project; anyone interested - response
>Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:30:47 -0500
>
>As I said Stephen, I have a QUALIFIED opinion, based on three
>degrees in biological science from one of the nations academic
>giants, Vanderbilt University. I have been a college professor,
>a medical editor, and a scientific analyst. My opinion is QUALIFIED. You
>may be given an answer to your ancestry questions, but it will actually be
>meaningless.
>
>Helen
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steven Bird" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:49 AM
>Subject: Re: [BIRD-L] DNA project; anyone interested - response
>
>
> > Helen and others,
> >
> > As I stated earlier, anyone interested might go the the Edmund Rice
> > Association website, which has an extended discussion on the topic of
>their
> > experience using DNA to determine relationships. What I hope to find
>out
>is
> > if any of the PROVED lines from immigrants in the 17th c. are from the
>same
> > male ancestor.
> >
> > The ERA discussion is found at
> > <http://www.widomaker.com/~gwk/era/haplotype.htm>;
> >
> > Their experience is instructive; we would need to combine conventional
> > research with Y-DNA research to determine if their is a connection.
>Often,
> > the evidence shows that there is NOT a connection, which from a
> > geanealogical standpoint is also useful to know.
> >
> >
> > Steven Bird, DMA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Helen" <>
> > >To:
> >
> ><>,<>,<>,<J
>>,<>,<>,<>,<c
>>,<>,<>,<
>m>,<>,<>,<>,<arick
>>,<>,<>,<char.anne
>@verizon.net>,<>,<>,<epomeroy9
>8@earthlink.net>,<>,<>,<
>>
> > >Subject: Re: [BIRD-L] DNA project; anyone interested?
> > >Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:32:04 -0500
> > >
> > >
> > >Danny and All,
> > >I hate to burst your bubble, but if ANYONE says you can use DNA testing
>to
> > >prove the relationship you seek, RUN - DON'T WALK, IN THE OPPOSITE
> > >DIRECTION.
> > >At best, all you will get is a statement based on very shakey ground,
>which
> > >if accurate,
> > >says you "MIGHT BE" related to...descended from....etc. You already
>know
> > >this. What
> > >is generally omitted is that you "might NOT be" related to, or
>descended
> > >from the
> > >person with whom you seek a relationship.
> > >
> > >Although my opinons are not expert, they are certainly qualified far
>above
> > >average,
> > >for I have undergraduate and graduate degrees in biological sciences,
>as
> > >well as
> > >impressive professional experience.
> > >
> > >I recently corresponded with one of the World's LEADING geneticists on
> > >the subject of DNA Testing as a Family History tool, and I urge EACH of
>you
> > >carefully read the major reference from the researcher:
> > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/09/010907080527.htm
> > >I'm sure you probably know that the word "evolutionary" does NOT equate
>to
> > >human surname relationships.
> > >
> > >Using equivalent amounts of time, energy, and money in proven methods
>for
> > >researching family history can be definitive; DNA testing cannot.
> > >
> > >It is not my intention to offend anyone; however I cannot sit silently
>by
> > >and watch
> > >another group be led down the primrose path to NOWHERE. If you have
>that
> > >kind of money to gamble, invest it in a State Lottery, and travel to
> > >appropriate
> > >archives with your winnings...(and I am saying this solely in the
>interet
> > >of "lightening
> > >up", certainly NOT advising you to do so.
> > >
> > >Helen
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From:
> > > To: ; ;
>;
> > > ; ; ;
>
> > >; ; ; ;
> > > ; ; ;
> > > ; ; ;
> > > ; ;
>;
> > > ; ;
> > > ; ;
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 3:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [BIRD-L] DNA project; anyone interested?
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 1/14/2004 10:26:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>Dbyrd000
> > >writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > I'm interested. I descend from Thomas T. Bird/Byrd of Virginia,
>died
> > >1805 in Robertson County, Tennessee. Research indicates that it is
>possible
> > >but not proven that he descends from Birds/Byrds that lived on the
> > >Gunpowder River in Baltimore/Harford County, Maryland as early as 1670.
>Let
> > >me know what we need to do.
> > >
> > > Danny Byrd
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I of course am very pleased by this -- of no surprise to most of
>you.
> > >For your information if you aren't on the Bird list, Danny was replying
>to
> > >this email sent there:
> > >
> > > Happy New Year! Janet Hunter
> > >
> > > Subj: [BIRD-L] DNA project; anyone interested?
> > > Date: 1/14/2004 7:10:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > > From: (Steven Bird)
> > > To:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello listers,
> > >
> > > There was some discussion about starting a DNA project for the
>various
> > > branches of the Bird family. I for one could provide a fully
>documented
> > >line
> > > of descent from Thomas Bird of Hartford (d. 1662). It would be
> > >interesting
> > > to see if Thomas of Hartford and Thomas of Dorchester were from the
>same
> > > male ancestor. Is there anyone on this list who is a documented
> > >descendant
> > > of Thomas Bird of Dorchester (1613-1667)? Another area of interest
> > >would be
> > > the Birds of Long Island or New Jersey, who are likely (IMO) to be
> > >related
> > > to either the Birds of CT or the Birds of MA.
> > >
> > > Another comparison might be to the Byrds of Virginia, the Birds of
> > >Tennessee
> > > or Georgia, etc. Maybe everyone is from Broxton, Cheshire?
> > >
> > > Is anyone else interested?
> > >
> > > Steve Bird
> > > a descendant of Thomas Bird of Hartford in the 11th generation
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your
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> >
> >
>
>

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