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Archiver > BOER-WAR > 2008-02 > 1202661632


From: "Richard Proud" <>
Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Ernest Gibson - CIV and IY
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:40:32 -0000
References: <0063E1E35184420699EAE2994B8F75B4@RJPDellLaptop><008701c852ec$6d427310$0301a8c0@D84T2G0JPedro><745B594AE84C45A5888D804F533774C6@RJPDellLaptop><001501c86535$3cee4760$0301a8c0@D84T2G0JPedro><B9821C39C69440F7B27FA247562A34EC@RJPDellLaptop><005601c865f4$1d525620$0301a8c0@D84T2G0JPedro>


Hi Peter

Kevin has come up trumps and located Ernest Gibson's IY service record.

He joined the 24th Battalion of the IY Metropolitan Mounted Rifles on the
13/2/1901 as a Private and was discharged (by his own request) on the
18/11/1901 as a Corporal. He was actually in South Africa from 12/4/1901 to
the 17/10/1901. It says he was awarded the QSA Medal with the three state
clasps we know about.

>From your information we know that he was previously with the CIV from
August 1900 until October 1900 (least ways in South Africa until then).

Looking at his IY medal roll and the 'odd' Laing's Nek entry, it now appears
on closer inspection that the person completing the roll has 'reused' that
column on the form to indicate who is eligible for the SA medal 1901 and
then also the SA medal 1902. Ernest was eligible for the former, which is
why there is a 'yes' in the Laing's Nek column! It also shows that when he
was with the IY he was only awarded the Cape Colony and OFS clasps. The CIV
medal roll shows him eligible for those two + the Transvaal, so his IY
Service Record seems to recognise awards from both his time in the CIV and
the IY.

It's great to be able to frame the time he would have served in South
Africa - thanks to both you and Kevin. What I would really like to know is
what actions would he have been involved in - both with the CIV August to
October 1900 and then the IY April to October 1901. Kevin Asplin says that
the IY hardly ever fought in anything more than company size, and mostly
smaller than that. Any ideas on where to look for more information on
actions involving the IY?

cheers
Richard

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Wray" <>
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 11:34 PM
To: <>
Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Ernest Gibson - CIV and IY

> Thanks for reply Richard - fascinating, and complicated.
>
> None of those names appear on "The Official Roll of The City of London
> Imperial Volunteers" as published in "The "City Press"" C.I.V. Souvenir
> No.3" This list has c.1550 names. No date of publication but I guess
> March
> 1900.
>
> I have another publication (only just recalled it ) PICKMAN'S PROGRESS
> which
> in addtion to the same roll as above, has an extra list headed:
> DRAFT - JOINED 28TH AUGUST 1900
> This list includes all of your D mens' names, and lists the Volunteer unit
> from which they came. Gibson was a member of the 21st Middlesex Rifle
> Volunteers.
> So D = Draft who arrived too late to participate in named battles, but
> travelled up through the 3 States. Certainly, they are on the C.I.V. roll
> for clasps earned with that corps.
>
> The C.I.V. left South Africa to return to England at the beginning of
> October. It was not uncommon for men to take their discharge in South
> Africa
> and join another corps. Having been in South Africa for only 6 or 7 weeks
> and seen little action, it would not be surprising if Gibson was one such.
> (The Laings Nek clasp on the I.Y. roll is a confusion though, as this was
> for action 2nd-9th June 1900.)
>
> Presumably Gibson was through the same States subsequently with the
> Imperial
> Yeomanry. Usually, the later roll is amended and annotated accordingly to
> prevent a double issue of clasps. Sometimes checks failed and double
> clasps
> were issued to be attached to a previously issued medal. Occasionally
> there
> was a double issue of the complete medal with clasps, each medal named to
> the appropriate corps.
>
> As regards service papers, originally he would sign a set for enlistment
> in
> the C.I.V. and another set when he joined the Imperial Yeomanry. It is my
> understanding that the Guildhall held all the C.I.V. papers and that these
> were lost in a fire. The Imperial Yeomanry papers will be held at the
> National Archives. It is not surprising that the Guildhall could not find
> papers for him. A researcher (? Kevin Asplin whom you have had contact
> with
> already) would quickly ascertain if Gibson's papers have survived at The
> National Archive. (He could also check to see if WW1 service papers have
> survived.)
>
> The Imperial Yeomanry papers will give you some answers.
>
> Regards
>
> Peter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Proud" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Ernest Gibson - CIV and IY
>
>
>> Hi Peter
>>
>> The other names are:
>>
>> D78 Private J.E. Gerahty, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal clasps
>> D116 Sergt W.R.B Gillespie, Belfast, Cape, OFS clasps
>> D130 Private D. Gisby, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal clasps
>> D17 Private J.V. Glenny, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal clasps
>> D94 Private W.H. Glibbery, Cape Colony, OFS, Transvaal clasps
>>
>> It's interesting that Sgt Gillespie has one different clasp from the
>> others - Belfast.
>>
>> Re. service papers, I asked the Guildhall to look them up, but their
> initial
>> search didn't find them. However, they admit there are more files to look
>> through, but that was the limit of the time they could spend - unless I
> pay.
>> That's expensive and I'll have to wait until I can make a visit in
>> person.
>>
>> Any help you can give is much appreciated
>> Richard
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Peter Wray" <>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:47 AM
>> To: <>
>> Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Ernest Gibson - CIV and IY
>>
>> > Me again Richard.
>> >
>> > Will you give me the names of the other men on the roll with D numbers
> so
>> > I
>> > can check them against the C.I.V. name list that I have ?
>> >
>> > Secondly, did you try to get copies of his Imperial Yeomanry service
>> > papers
>> > ? A researcher could look them up for you.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Peter
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Richard Proud" <>
>> > To: <>
>> > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 12:16 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Ernest Gibson - CIV and IY
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi all
>> >>
>> >> Following on from my email exchange with Peter Wray a few weeks ago, I
>> > have
>> >> now got my ancestor's medal roll for both the City of London Imperial
>> >> Volunteers and then the Imperial Yeomanry Metropolitan Mounted Rifles.
>> >>
>> >> On the former, where he is down as a Private, he is one of several who
>> > have
>> >> a 'D' in front of their name. In all these cases, they are marked as
>> >> being
>> >> eligible for Cape Colony, OFS and Transvaal QSA medal clasps. Others
>> >> on
>> > the
>> >> roll without the 'D' have other clasps - e.g./ Johannesburg, Diamond
>> >> Hill,
>> >> Paardeburg and Driefontein. These guys also have the CC and OFS
>> >> clasps,
>> > but
>> >> not the Transvaal - as they were probably not eligible for this if
>> >> they
>> > had
>> >> specific Transvaal battle clasps. The date for the completion of this
>> >> roll
>> >> is given as 16/5/1901 at the Depot, Guildhall.
>> >>
>> >> On his IY medal roll, he is marked down for the same three state
> clasps,
>> > but
>> >> also Laing's Nek. The date for the completion of this roll is given as
>> >> 3/10/1901 at Van de Bergs Kraal.
>> >>
>> >> So it's still unclear to me what the 'D' might indicate, as taking the
>> >> CIV
>> >> roll at first value, it looks like he did get three clasps with them -
>> > which
>> >> implies that he did travel to SA with the CIV and saw active service
>> > there.
>> >> However, may be the CIV roll was filled in when the CIV officer
>> > responsible
>> >> knew he was in the IY and that the clasps come from that service.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, I obviously need to track down his service records - the
>> >> Guildhall
>> >> kindly checked for me but couldn't see them on an initial search, so
> they
>> >> have suggested I go in for a visit. However, in the mean time if
>> >> anyone
>> >> knows more about the CIV regimental numbering system and what the 'D'
>> >> indicates, then please let me know. It may well be as Peter suggested
>> >> previously that D stands for 'Depot' and the clasps are from his IY
>> > service.
>> >>
>> >> Many thanks
>> >> Richard
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------------------------------
>> >> From: "Peter Wray" <>
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 6:21 PM
>> >> To: <>
>> >> Subject: Re: [BOER-WAR] Ernest Gibson - CIV and IY
>> >>
>> >> > Richard
>> >> >
>> >> > The name E.G.Gibson does not appear on "The Official Roll of The
>> >> > City
>> >> > of
>> >> > London Imperial Volunteers" as published in "The "CITY PRESS" C.I.V.
>> >> > Souvenir No.3 I see that Kevin Asplin has him as D/24. This not in
> the
>> >> > normal run of numbers for CIV men in South Africa. I wonder if it
> might
>> > be
>> >> > a
>> >> > Depot number i.e. in London.
>> >> >
>> >> > This perhaps suggests that though he may have been associated with
> the
>> >> > C.I.V., he did not travel to South Africa with them.
>> >> >
>> >> > Generally, CIV men qualified for one or more battle clasps as they
> were
>> > in
>> >> > South Africa in the early part of 1900 and saw much action. The fact
>> > that
>> >> > the Imperial Yeomanry roll has him entitled to three State clasps
>> > further
>> >> > suggests to me that he had no enitlement to battle clasps for
>> >> > earlier
>> >> > service.
>> >> >
>> >> > Have you looked for copies of his service papers associated with his
>> >> > Imperial Yeomanry service? These might show what his previous
>> >> > service
>> > was.
>> >> >
>> >> > Peter
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Richard Proud" <>
>> >> > To: <>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:51 PM
>> >> > Subject: [BOER-WAR] Ernest Gibson - CIV and IY
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi all
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have just joined the mailing list. My great uncle Ernest George
>> > Gibson
>> >> > was
>> >> >> in the City Imperial Volunteers (CIV) and then the Imperial
>> >> >> Yeomanry
>> > (IY)
>> >> >> and served in South Africa. He survived, but was unfortunately then
>> >> >> killed
>> >> >> in the 1st World War.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I know, from Kevin Asplin's very kind help some time ago, that he
> was
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> Corporal in the IY - his army number was 30636 and he was in the
> 94th
>> >> >> Company of the 24th Battalion. I also know from Kevin that he was
>> > awarded
>> >> >> the South Africa Medal, with three state bars (Cape Colony, OFS &
>> >> > Transvaal)
>> >> >> and a 1901 bar too. However, I'd dearly like to know:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. if, because he was with the CIV, he would have been eligible for
>> >> >> any
>> >> >> other decoration
>> >> >> 2. where in South Africa he would have fought with the CIV
>> >> >> 3. where in South Africa his IY Battalion fought
>> >> >>
>> >> >> He appears in the 1901 census and is recorded then as being in the
> IY,
>> > so
>> >> > he
>> >> >> wasn't in South Africa at the end of March 1901.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I also have a photo of him in uniform, is it possible to post this
> on
>> > the
>> >> >> list? I was hoping if someone could confirm the uniform he's
> wearing.
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> think it's IY and is post war as he appears to have a medal ribbon
> on
>> > it.
>> >> > On
>> >> >> the other hand if there were CIV decorations, then maybe its for
> that
>> > and
>> >> > it
>> >> >> was taken during the war?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Any help very much appreciated
>> >> >> Richard
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
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>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
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