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From: (Ralph John)
Subject: Fwd: Re: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:30:00 -0500 (EST)


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Hello List, I am researching a MARTIN JOHN Who maried a BOWSER girl. She
was a member of the Big Conowago Brethern church in 1770 I think. He is
inthe tax lists both as Martin JOHN and John MARTIN. He is said to be a
DUNKARD minister as most brethren are also called in that section of
Armstrong county. He died in abt.1847. I have no clue as to his parents.
He is in the glas tax. Got anything to help or I you. RALPH


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From: "Gerald Gieger" <>
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Subject: Re: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 03:45:15 +0000
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As I understand it, the Lutheran, Congregational, Anglican(Episcopal) and
Roman Catholic Churches believed in Infant Baptism, and the method was
Sprinkling or Pouring, as some may call it...The AnaBaptists rejected Infant
Baptism deferring to Adult Baptism, and Immersion. The Dunkers held to the
Anabaptist doctrine of Adult Candidates(not Babies) but immersed three
times, once in the name of each member of the Trinity, hence the term
'dunker,' while some also held to Sabbatarian concepts. The Seventh-Day
Baptists were closely allied with the Dunkers.

The "regular" Baptists did not emerge until later...sometime in the
early-mid 1800s, there was a split which formed the Primitive (or Hardshell)
and Missionary sects over the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination...the
Primitive sect held to the strict Calvinistic concept and had no use for
Mission activity, while the others wanted to evangelize the Indians, and all
other non-believers...so they formed the Missionary Baptists...both still
held to the Anabaptist doctrine of Immersion of Adults and rejected Infant
Baptism.

As the older ministers died off, some of the Primitive Baptists switched
sides and realigned with the Missionary Baptists. Although there are some
Churches of both sects left today, the larger portion of Baptist people in
the South formed an alliance called the Southern Baptist Convention, which
is the predominant Baptist Church today...

It might be noteworthy to say that John Wesley, Father of Methodism,
believed in Immersion, and left the US for England, never to return, over a
dispute with the Lutheran Bishop in SC because Wesley insisted upon total
Immersion...something his Church does not adhere to today...


>From: "Robert and Sue Carpenter" <>
>Reply-To:
>To:
>Subject: Re: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
>Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:20:03 -0500
>
>Dear South Carolina Dunker researchers,
>
>I have an interesting article by Max Emery Miller which he wrote in 1999
>concerning the Brethren connections in South Carolina and also in North
>Carolina. Much remains unsubstantiated about these connections.
>
>Mr. Miller contends that the Beaver Creek Dunker congregation on Broad
>River
>and the Dunker congregation on Lynches Creek near Camden were both 7th Day
>Dunkers, loyal to the Ephrata Cloister. He detailed a number of Lynches
>Creek Germans with Anabaptist and Ephrata Cloister connections.
>
>Key members of the Lynches Creek Dunker congregation were the Weidner
>family. In present Catawba County, North Carolina Heinrich Weidner
>(Whitener) resided and during the 1760's Indian uprising moved to the
>Lynches Creek area to live with his relatives, Jacob, Michael, and Isaac
>Weidner. Jacob deeded land on Flat Creek for a Baptist Church in 1771.
>
>Other Germans who Mr. Miller contended were also Dunkers included Peter
>Beller, Peter Gyst (Geist), Friedrich Henrich, possibly Michael and George
>Miller, the Funderburks -- Henry, Anthony, and Devalt --, Peter Arrant
>(Aaron, Arndt), Jacob Free (Fries), Isaac Fortenberry (Falkenburgh), Jacob
>Plyler, Michael Miers, and John Welsh. He also cited James McManus as a
>person deeding quite a bit of property to these Dunkers. His role is
>unknown.
>
>Mr. Miller also mentioned the role of Israel Seymour, the Dunker minister.
>He contends that Seymour was ordained a German Seventh Day Baptist minister
>and organized the Broad River Sabbatarian Church. He further states that
>there were at least three meeting houses on the Broad River: Beaver Creek,
>Mobleys Meeting House, Rock Creek, and Little River. He also contends that
>7th Day Baptist, Dunkers, 7th Day Quakers (which included English speaking
>Quakers), and regular Quakers associated with each other and later were
>absorbed into the regular Baptist Church. This was especially the case
>once
>their Dunker ministers died.
>
>In my area of North Carolina --Gaston, Lincoln, and Catawba -- the Dunker
>congregations here also became regular Baptist after their ministers died.
>In the area west of the Catawba River at least two Dunker congregations
>pre-dated the Revolution -- Killians Settlement and a congregation known as
>Little Mountain meeting House/Long Creek Congregation/Bethel Church. After
>the Revolution two new Dunker ministers created two meeting houses, both
>named Thessalonica.
>
>I have also spent a lot of time researching Rev. Johann Frederick
>Doubber/Doubbert/Dauber. He was a follower of Jacob Weber of the Weberite
>fame. He fled into North Carolina where he appeared to minister to
>Dunkers,
>Mennonites, Amish, and other Germans starved for spirituality. Just prior
>to the Revolution he returned to South Carolina and settled near Cedar
>Creek
>where he served Appii Forum. This congregation was made up of a number of
>former members of the Weberite sect. By the way one member of this sect
>was
>named Geiger. He died in Charleston apparently serving the
>Lutheran-Reformed Church of Charleston as a Tory. I suspect that he was
>pacifist, which caused his Toryism. I doubt that Doubber was a Dunker but
>I
>do believe that he held Anabaptist beliefs with some non-orthodox beliefs
>(Weberite) which made him an interesting fellow. Little is known about him
>or his ministries.
>
>I am intrigued by Doubber and the Dunkers. I would relish additional
>information posted on these families and ministers.
>
>Robert Carpenter
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gerald Gieger" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:01 PM
>Subject: RE: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
>
>
> > Bring in anyone you want; more is better...but I know that Rev. John
> > Nicholas Martin was a renowned Lutheran Minister in SC, and was never a
> > Dunker...they have conflicting Doctrinal views on method of Baptism and
>age
> > eligibility for Baptism, plus some othere conflicts...
> >
> > I believe that Elder Nicholas Martin of PA was the son of George Adam
>and
> > the brother of David Martin of the Broad River Dunkers. John Nicholas
> > Martin's Will is a widely published Public Record filed in SC, and all
> > efforts to place him in GA conflict with other records, as he could not
>be
> > in two places at the same time...
> >
> >
> > >From: "Cheryll Reed" <>
> > >Reply-To:
> > >To:
> > >Subject: RE: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
> > >Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:03:07 -0500
> > >
> > >There was a John Martin up in the Franklin County area, along with a
> > >Nicholas Martin----and I've been trying to figure out if there's any
> > >connection to John Nicholas Martin (which sure seems likely) of
>Adams/York
> > >County.
> > >
> > >Would you mind if I brought a third person into this discussion? Her
> > >father
> > >is a church historian and author and she knows far more about the
>various
> > >other branches than I do.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Gerald Gieger [mailto:]
> > >Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 2:04 PM
> > >To:
> > >Subject: RE: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
> > >
> > >We have been unsuccessful in trying to link him to Elder George Adam,
> > >although it is a possibility, since it has not been disproven...There
>were
> > >at least five John Martin's in GA during Revolutionary Days and three
>have
> > >been completely disproven - John Nicholas Martin of Lutheran fame; John
> > >Martin of Midway Congregational Church who died in 1772; Col/Gen. John
> > >Martin who became Governor of GA.
> > >
> > >In 1968, Elam V. Martin of Dayton Beach FL published a book on the
> > >"Genealogy of Emanuel Henry Martin," wherein he mistakenly claimed the
> > >lineage of Rev. John Nicholas Martin, and it has caused great
>controversy
> > >and confusion...never recognizing the Doctrinal conflicts that arise
> > >between
> > >
> > >Lutherans and Dunkers...I think Elam was a Baptist, or
>Church-of-Christ.
>I
> > >know that EHM followed the CoC faith.
> > >
> > >Anyway, if you have any info that would help me reach a conclusion, I
>would
> > >appreciate it...A 1790 Deed in Bulloch County GA says grandfather John
>A.
> > >was a Minister of the Gospel, however we have never found records of
>his
> > >Ordaination, albeit Elder David Martin was Ordained in SC by his
>brother
> > >Nicholas and another minister from PA; some have claimed that he might
>be
> > >descended from Zachariah Martin of NC/SC who had sons named both John
>and
> > >James...I believe Zachariah was also an Elder of the Dunker faith.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Cheryll Reed" <>
> > > >To: <>
> > > >Subject: RE: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
> > > >Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:00:51 -0500
> > > >
> > > >Any connection to Elder George Adam Martin? He was born in 1715 near
> > > >Lundsthal. Germany, and died in 1794 in Somerset County, Pa. I have
>a
> > > >great
> > > >deal of information on George Adam---he was involved in Ephrata and
>Snow
> > > >Hill.
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: Gerald Gieger [mailto:]
> > > >Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 2:57 PM
> > > >To:
> > > >Subject: [BRE] John A. Martin, c1735-1809
> > > >
> > > >Seeking identification and data on Elder John A. Martin who was
>likely
> > >born
> > > >in the 1730s in an unidentified place and died after 28 May 1808 but
> > >before
> > > >27 Jan 1810, in GA...
> > > >
> > > >He was a resident of St. Phillips Parish GA before and during the
> > > >Revolutionary War and the original Effingham County after the War.
>That
> > > >area
> > > >was divided up in the 1790s, but is near the juncture of Bryan
>County,
> > > >Bulloch County and present day Effingham County, along the Great
>Ogeechee
> > > >River...Depending on the date and varying boundaries, some Deeds can
>be
> > > >found which claim he is a resident of either of the three Counties.
> > > >Grandfather John's wife was named Elizabeth in some of those Deeds...
> > > >
> > > >Before 1899, A.G. Martin, who was the County Clerk of Uvalde County
>TX,
> > > >wrote on the back of a Deed in his office that James Martin was a
> > >preacher
> > > >in the Dunker Denomination with his father John...A.G. Martin was the
> > > >grandson of James Martin & his 2nd wife Mary, and the elder son of
> > >Emanuel
> > > >Henry Martin who resided in Bryan County, GA in 1840, but migrated to
>FL
> > > >shortly thereafter...A.G. Martin died in 1900, but about 1926,
>someone
> > > >researching Deeds in the Clerk's Office found the note, and the
> > > >handwritting
> > > >has been attested as that of A.G. Martin...
> > > >
> > > >The Zachariah Gieger Bible in MS records the birth of James Martin as
>6
> > >Oct
> > > >1756. Zachariah was the grandson of James Martin & his 2nd wife
>Mary,
> > >and
> > > >first-cousin to A.G. Martin named above. Zachariah's mother was
>Tobitha
> > > >(Martin) Gieger who was born in GA in 1793. James Martin died before
> > >1830,
> > > >because his wife is listed as a widow on that Census.
> > > >
> > > >Grandfather John A. Martin is thought to have only five children -
>James
> > > >Martin, Elijah Martin, Mercy Martin, Mary Martin, and Rachel Martin.
>A
> > > >Deed
> > > >was executed 27 Jan 1810 for the last parcel of land granted to
> > >Grandfather
> > > >John. This Deed was signed by James Martin, Elijah Martin, and the
> > >husbands
> > > >of the three women who are acknowledged to have been the daughters of
> > >John
> > > >A. Martin...
> > > >
> > > >Attempts to link him to other Martin families in that part of GA have
>not
> > > >been successful...Any help or information would be appreciated, no
>matter
> > > >how insignificant it might seem, since all pieces of the puzzle will
>be
> > > >examined and perhaps it can be established who he was, and where he
>came
> > > >from...
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > >

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