BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER-L ArchivesArchiver > BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER > 1999-07 > 0931175987
Subject: [BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER-L] BB News No. 41A dtd 15 Aug 1998 (edited)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:59:47 EDT
THE BURGENLAND BUNCH NEWS -No. 41A
DEDICATED TO AUSTRIAN-HUNGARIAN BURGENLAND GENEALOGY
(issued biweekly by )
August 15, 1998
All Rights Reserved. Permission To Copy Granted If Credit Is Given.
This second section of the 3 section newsletter features articles on Looking
At Church Records, Looking At Civil Records, More On the Term "Ambo", LDS
Copies of Catholic Church Records, News From Chicago, More Historical Terms,
and A Few More Terms (includes the divisions of Eisenstadt).
LOOKING AT CHURCH RECORDS (Ed., Steve von Hitritz, Albert Schuch)
Ed.-When studying LDS church records and finding ancestors, you also
invariably find some puzzling words and abbreviations. Steve von Hitritz ran
into the following and called for help:
>>What is "Mons." And "Oszlop" and "Zagrebia" ? Zagrebia probably is
Zagreb, Croatia, but I don't know how the priest (would have) referred to
Croatia in 1875. Oszlop may not be what it appears, but it is my best guess
based upon priest's handwriting. I have seen another Latin term, "Carnio."
Don't know what that is either. >>
Answer from Ed.- In looking at church records it has been my experience that
the places mentioned are generaly nearby, often the Hungarian names (or
abbreviations) of villages. I'm copying Albert Schuch who may be able to add
Albert writes: It is always hard to interpret a word without knowing the
context. But let me try: "Oszlop" is, like Gerry writes in his answer, the
village Oslip (in the Eisenstadt district).
"Zagrebia" will be Zagreb in Croatia - the Burgenland Croats frequently had
some contacts to the Croatian mainland. This may indicate one of them. (I
don't think that it refers to Zagersdorf.)
"Mons." is Latin for mountain or hill - the German word is "Berg". So I think
this might refer to either "Eisenstadt-Oberberg" or "Eisenstadt-Unterberg" -
both were independent communities until 1938, when they were incorporated
"Carnio." probably is, as Gerry also writes, an abbreviation for "Carniola
(empire name for the Istrian penninsula-former Yugoslavia, now Slovenia)".
German name for "Carniola" is "Krain".
LOOKING AT HUNGARIAN CIVIL RECORDS (Ed., Jerry Molchany, Joe Jarfas)
Hungarian Civil Records (1896-1921) are full of good data but they can be
confusing. If you haven't had any experience with them, this may help. Jerry
>>My grandmother's parents were supposedly 1st cousins and both born in
Woppendorf. I have their birth records. I don't have the marriage record
since it is on another roll. The gov't (civil) records I'm looking at right
now cover births from 1895-1920. I'll have to wait until I get the other 2
rolls (marriages and deaths) to see if they were actually married in
I started going thru the 1895-1920 birth records. The format changed up to
about 1907, then it switches back. One of the lines at the top of the
records goes like this: " Megjelent az alulirott anyako:nyvvezto: (NAME)
elo:tt a kinek a'lla'sa (foglalkoza'sa): baba". I tried using the online
Hungarian dictionary but it didn't help much. Any ideas what this means? Can
you think of a reason that my Grandmother's birth is not recorded? Her
brothers are. >>
Ed. writes: I'm copying Joe Jaras on this and asking him to give us a full
translation. Try looking for your grandmother's birth in the church where her
mother got married. The first child was frequently baptized in the mother's
Joe Jarfas writes: received your message and here is a rough translation:
>In a message dated 98-06-30 08:49:49 EDT, you write: One of the lines at the
top of the records goes like this: "Megjelent az alulirott anyako:nyvvezto:
(NAME) elo:tt a kinek a'lla'sa (foglalkoza'sa): baba" [Megjelent az alulrott
anyaknyvvezeto ... eltt, akinek llsa (foglalkozsa): baba ... !]
Translates: Presented to the undersigned records keeper ... whose status (job,
profession) is baby ... The 'burocrateeze' sentence translates to this: The
above named - and undersigning - keeper of records received the data for a
baby (even though it says so - but highly unlikely - the baby itself). And
this keeper of records considered most important (or was required) to record
the job or profession for the 'person'! The implication is that this was not
a church record, but that of a civilian authority of one sort or an other,
(but might have been copied from church records). Gerry's suggestion can be
followed, provided of course that the parents
did not move someplace else after the wedding. It could also have been that
the first child did not get baptized (or the birth recorded) right after
birth, but much later. Then, after they were reminded of their duties, they
got all that done for the following children. Hope this helps a bit. The
implication is that this was not a church record, but that of a civilian
authority of one sort or an other, (but might have been copied from church
The above having jogged my memory, I reply: Yes Joe (Jerry), I didn't
recognize the format at first but this is typical Hungarian legalese from the
first civil record form of 1896 to about 1910. Then they got simpler, not as
much data. They go to two or more pages with an introduction where someone
appears (in front of a Magistrate or town clerk whose name is given) and
reports a birth or death. He (she) gives his name and place of residence and
the particulars, father, mother, where and when born (died) etc. The earlier
records provide names and places of birth of grandparents also. (Often filled
in with the Hungarian word "ismeretlin" or unknown.) Deaths are often
reported by a local doctor or priest. Marriage records are similar, but also
contain particulars concerning the witnesses. Probably the most complete type
of Hungarian record found. Period 1896-1921 were copied by LDS.
MORE ON THE TERM "AMBO" (from Bob Schatz, Anna Kresh)
Bob writes: "In the current BB newsletter you raise a question regarding the
meaning of the Latin word "ambo", and speculate that it might refer to an
individual's status. In fact, the word means "both" and, in the
Gu"ssing/Nemetujvar parish registers at least, was used in the baptismal and
marriage entries when both husband and wife came from the same village.
"Ambo Orbanfalva" meant simply that both were from Urbersdorf. Frequently the
syntax would also appear as "ambo ex...." (literally, "both from...").
Anna writes: I found "ambo" used extensively in the 1828-1895 Nemet Csencs
church records that I am currently studying. In the more recent records,
which are Latin entries with both Latin and Hungarian headings, "ambo" is
used to indicate that "both" parents originate from the same town. "Ambo" is
Latin for "both" or "two together". For example, if the parents were both
from Horvat Csencs, their "lokum originis (szlets helyk)" column contains
"Ambo ex H. Csencs", literally translated from the Latin as "both from Horvat
LDS COPIES OF CATHOLIC CHURCH RECORDS (from Bob Schatz)
Regarding the filming of Catholic church records by the LDS (Mormons), I
suspect that the church authorities will not cooperate with the Mormons for
two reasons. One, from the Catholic heirarchy's point of view, Mormon
doctrine is beyond the pale of "acceptable" Christian theology as derived
from the apostles. The Mormons claim that their docrine comes from the Book
of Mormon, revealed by the angel Moroni to Joseph Smith in 1823 in upstate
New York, and from the Doctrine and Covenants, another set of revelations to
Smith. Their concept of the nature of God and the role of Jesus also differs
substantially from that of apostolic Christianity. In addition, I believe
the Mormons claim that the US Constitution is divine revelation and, up until
1890, they practiced polygamy. All these beliefs do not come within the pale
of the Christian tradition as derived from the apostles.
The second reason flows out of the first in that it is a question of
doctrinal belief. Mormon theology claims that families do not cease to exist
after death, and that it is possible to baptize one's ancestors and therefore
bring them into the Mormon communion. This is the primary reason why the
Mormons have microfilmed records so extensively. Naturally, the Catholic
Church could not condone such use of its records. The Burgenland church
records which the Mormons have microfilmed are all duplicates created to
serve as civil records for the various komitat/megye archives. Starting in
1828 in the Kingdom of Hungary, church records did double duty as civil
records of vital statistics. Separate civil registration of births, marriages
and deaths only began in Hungary in 1895. As you may know, these 1828-1895
records are now all kept at the Hungarian National Archives in Budapest,
which is where they were filmed by the Mormons, through the cooperation of
the Hungarian government. Interestingly, the records pre-1844 are often in
Latin not only because it was the official language of the Catholic Church,
but also because it was the official language of Hungary. Magyar only became
the official language of the kingdom in 1844 during the revolutionary era.
Pardon me if I have gone on about matters which you already know. Best
NEWS FROM CHICAGO (from Tom Glatz)
Food! Food! Food! Why are we always concerned about the taste of food? Today
we had our BG appreciation dinner at a restaurant in the western suburbs
(Dupage Co.) known as the Bohemian Crystal. It was wonderful. It is very
similar to Vienese cuisine. At one time there were more Bohemians in Chicago
than Prague itself (more Croatians than Zagreb, more Poles than Warsaw,
etc..) That is why we have all of these gloriously good restaurants. They
have these dinners for the active working members of the BG. I have tried
unsuccessfully to pay for the meals. They won't hear of it. We had duck, pork
schnitzel, ribs, sauerkraut, Bohemian dumplings (they are yeast, sort of like
uncooked bread-I don't care for them personally. I always order mashed
potatoes.) We had wonderful Pilsner Urquell beer from Bohemia. The price was
reasonable because we had 20 some people. I would like to have the BBers from
Chicago at this place. We even had our own little gemuetlich room with the
typical heart-shaped handpainted chairs & lots of pictures & artifacts from
the Czech republic.
Anyway, they liked the newsletter very much! The Billisits were elated & I
gave them a copy of the one where you mentioned them. I explained to all
present that they take too lightly all of the wonderful traditions in food
that the women have kept all of these years. They were pleased. I took quite
a few pictures. You will see them. I am going to send some to Dr. Dujmovits
for the BG newspaper. I have more recipes for you from Charlotte Billisits.
Some might be from her mother in law in Duernbach.
I rec'd a very nice book called Freiwillige Feuerwehr Rattersdorf 1897-1997
from acquaintance Josef Gneis, who lives there. It has lots of pictures of
the volunteer fire dept. & names for everyone. There is also a lot about
other things like the war years, other disasters (floods). I would be happy
to look up anything as usual. Unfortunately for me so far, I am the only one
with interest from Lockenhaus, Hammerteich, & Rattersdorf.
MORE ON HISTORICAL TERMS (from Fritz Knigshofer)
(Ed. -as stated previously those old terms appearing on German and Hungarian
records are difficult to translate using today's dictionaries. I suggest you
make a list of those mentioned here and add them to your genealogical notes.
You'll be glad you did when you next encounter them).
Fritz writes: "Albert's new information on village terminology painfully
reminded me of the mistake I made in translating the manuscript of my
greatgrandfather as printed in the recent issue on Poppendorf. I had
translated "Hutweiden" as willow trees! I am sorry, at the time I knew no
better; I really had no clue at all. Meanwhile, I had found out myself from
the Leser articles which Albert had kindly copied for me, that "Hutweiden"
was the term for the "common pastures" of a village, perhaps the southeast
German term for the word Allme(i)nde as used in most (?) German lands.
I had mixed up "Weide" (willow tree) with "Weide" in the meaning of pasture!
Hut means "hat" in German, at least at first glance, somewhat resembling the
shape of willow trees. So, this track led me on and on, into ever more
eroneous territory. Now I believe that Hut in Hutweide probably refers to
"hten" in the sense of shepherding or herding. This brings me to the wish
and question on whether we could try to further clarify the terms used in
Burgenland villages of yore. The Leser series also refers to "Rottgrnde"
as compared to the "Sessionsgrnde" of a village, and states that the tithe
was still collected from the "Rottgrnde" after 1848, although there was no
question that tithe no longer applied to the "Sessionsgrnde." Perhaps this
relates to the question which had been left open in the discussion on terms
we had early this year, when Albert reported his puzzlement about the village
areas that still required the tithe after 1848.
I have no idea about the distinction between Rottgrnde and Sessionsgrnde.
However, the word "Rott..." might refer to "roden" (clearing), and the
distinction might derive from when the clearance had been carried out.
Sessionsgrnde might describe the older, established exploited (farmed,
pastured, forested) areas, whereas Rottgrnde were areas that had become
exploited more recently.
The Hutweiden were parts of the village that were jointly used by all
inhabitants, although it seems that there was a Hutweide reserved for the
farmers of the village, and one for the "Sllner" (smallholders, Hungarian:
zsellr). It appears that during the Commassierung (called "Flurbereinigung"
in other parts of German lands), the Hutweiden were thrown into the total
pool of land for redistribution to individual farmers and thus ceased to
exist as commons for the village.
Other interesting terms are the "Hotter," probably descibing the whole of the
village in its borders against neighboring villages, possibly called Dorfmark
or Gemeindemark in other German lands. Perhaps this is also the same thing
as the term Gemeindeflur. Another term was/is "Anger" which might describe a
field of grass (or a pasture), but might more specifically mean a bordering
area, such as the grass fields bordering the area of cultivation (grain and
vegetable fields). You might recall that in the Poppendorf manuscript one
inhabitant mentioned had the name Angerhacker which might refer to a family
with the name of Hacker, living at the "Anger"-grounds of the village. I am
not even 50% sure of the following, but the Hungarian word for Anger might be
A term I don't recall from the Burgenland, but certainly used a lot in
neighboring Styria is "Leiten," typically meaning a pasture on the side
(slope) of a mountain or hill. As I had mentioned during the previous
discussion we had on the subject, the typical allocation of land to a farmer
in newly settled areas in German lands in the Middle Ages was called the
Hufe, ranging from about 10 hectares to 20 and more (the "Knigshufe"). When
I revisited Albert's previous writings about the typical size of a full
session in Hungary (16 to 40 Joch or Hold), I was surprised how closely this
resembles the typical Hufe (my English dictionary translates the word as
"hide" which Webster calls an old English land measure amounting to 24 to 40
hectares, a larger measure than in Germany but still within the same
ballpark). I wonder how often I might have missed the boat once again in
this write-up, but my intention was to help rekindle this interesting
discussion of an area which I think we have not fully nailed down as yet."
A FEW MORE TERMS (Albert Schuch answers Steve von Hitritz concerning some
church record terms):
"Cerdo sodalis"- "sodalis" is Latin for "journeyman" (in German: "Geselle"),
"cerdo" for "tanner" (in German: "Gerber" or "Lederer");
[The SPITZER leather factory / tannery in Eisenstadt was a quite famous one -
maybe this person worked there. I'd be interested to know the name of this
person or at least where he came from, as my disseration partially deals with
the tanneries in this area.]
> "ancilla" or "aucilla" usually next to a wife's name.-"ancilla" is Latin
for "(maid) servant" (in German: "Magd");
> On the record for Locus Domicilii cum Nro. Domus is either Mons. XX. Or Arx
XX where XX is a number. -Eisenstadt has developed from 4 once independent
communities: 1) Eisenstadt, 2) Unterberg (the former Jewish Ghetto),
independent until 1938, 3) Oberberg (short: "Am Berg"), independent until
1939, 4) Schlossgrund, independent until 1923."Mons" is Latin for "mountain"
(in German: "Berg"), hence in this case will refer to "Oberberg"; "Arx" is
Latin for "castle" (in German: "Schloss"), hence refers to the "Schlossgrund"
(castle area; under jurisdiction of the Princes Esterhazy until 1848)
> On later records in 1880s, Locus Domicilii says Kismarton Mons. Or
Kismarton Arx. And a number.-"Kismarton" is the official Hungarian name for
"Eisenstadt". The litteral meaning is "Small [Saint] Martin" as opposed to
"Nagymarton" (German: "Mattersdorf", today "Mattersburg"), litterally meaning
"Large [Saint] Martin"; for "Mons" and "Arx" see above; The number is always
the house number.
(end of second section; BB news continued as no. 41B)