Archiver > BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER > 2000-07 > 0965044562

Subject: [BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER-L] BB News No. 85 dtd 31 July, 2000
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:56:02 EDT

(issued biweekly by )
July 31, 2000
(all rights reserved)


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the end of newsletter section "B". Introductions, notes and articles without
a by-line are written by the editor. We now have 543 readers. This first
section of the 3 section newsletter contains the articles: Viennese Cyber
Cafes, Sources of Burgenland Flags, Susan Peters Returns From Burgenland,
Check Those Hungarian Records, Origin of Hungarians (Magyar) and a note about
Albert Schuch Meeting BB Visitors.


I'm very pleased to report that Klaus Gerger has agreed to serve as a member
of our staff. He spends his time between Vienna and Güssing and is well known
as an unofficial ambassador of the Güssing area and southern Burgenland.
He'll be listed as Burgenland Co-Editor> (Klaus Gerger,
Austria). Look for his maps and village lists available from our homepage.


Gerry, The other day I came across a newspaper article on cybercafes in
Vienna. It occurred to me that a Burgenland Bunch member traveling to Austria
might find such information helpful, so here is a summary/commentary:

There are just a few places where you can use the Internet for free. A good
bet are the big outlets of the discount booksellers "Libro" (the most
centrally located is probably the one in the "Eurocenter" department store
close to the Westbahnhof-end of Mariahilferstrasse). You will also find
computer terminals in "Amadeus" bookshops (two on Mariahilferstrasse in the
seventh district; one at Landstrasse 2 in the third district; one is tucked
away in the "Steffl" department store on Kärntnerstrasse in the first
district). The drawback is that the handling is not that convenient, and that
you may have to wait quite long for your turn, and that you are of course
also bound by shop opening hours.

The alternative are cybercafes. To me, the best deal seems to be the
bignet.cafe (www.bignet.at). It is centrally located (Hoher Markt 8-9 in the
first district of Vienna), and it is has rather long opening hours (from 10
a.m. to midnight). To use you have to open an account (to get a user name and
a password) and buy "Internet time" (minimum: 10 minutes; 30 minutes cost ATS
50; two hours ATS 150). Altogether there are 18 workstations, so this place
is really more like an office than a cafe (although drinks and snacks are
available as well). Apparently a second outlet will open onKärntnerstrasse,
also in the first district, in August 2000. Bignet has incidentally, also
installed two workstations at the Vienna airport -look out for them in the
waiting areas of Pier Ost and Pier West.

A number of cafes offer both Internet access and the amenities of a coffee
shop. There is, for instance, the Café Stein, located at Währingerstrasse
6-8, 1090 Vienna, which is also fairly central (close to the Votive
Church/Schottentor). The cafe is open daily from 10 a.m to 11 p.m. They offer
four Apple workstations and charge ATS 65 for half an hour. Expect the cafe
to be rather trendy; it is a far shot from an old-style Viennese coffeehouse.

An alternative nearby, drawing a more relaxed crowd, is the Café
Einstein(Rathausplatz 4, also in the ninth district and close to the
Schottentor hub of public transport). The place is open daily from 7 a.m. to
2 a.m.(Saturday and Sunday from 9 a.m.).

Another centrally located Internetcafe and restaurant is Merlin's
Cafe(Rudolfsplatz 2, 1010 Vienna). I would think that it is not that
well-known, so this may be an advantage if you go there to check and send
e-mail. They charge ATS 100 for any one hour that you spend online.

So much for cybercafes in Vienna; maybe somebody will find this helpful.
Naturally, Albert and I will also gladly help out and pass on information.
Kind regards, Inge

Ed. Comment: Coffee houses and now Cyber Cafes! The world of Strauss and the
Blue Danube changes. I hope they also have a good pastry selection. On our
last trip to Austria, I was amazed at how busy the coffee shops were-hard to
find a seat and this in the middle of winter.

My favorite coffee house story:

It was 1947 and a well known Viennese Coffee House had almost returned to
pre-war normality. A favorite "Baron" customer from before the War returned
and sat at his favorite pre-war table. He received his "usual" coffee and
asked the Herr Ober (headwaiter) for a copy of the Völkischer Beobachter.
The Herr Ober replied "Sorry Herr Baron" but we no longer have the Völkischer
Beobachter. The next day the same request, the same answer. The third day
the same request. Finally, the Herr Ober said-"Baron-that newspaper is no
more-it was a Nazi paper" The Nazis are no more!" I know that, said the
Baron, I just like to hear you say it!

SOURCE OF BURGENLAND FLAGS (Charles Wardell and Gerhard H. Lang)

In the last issue, Darlene Muellner asked for a source for buying Burgenland
flags. Two of our readers responded with addresses.

Charles writes: There is a company in Vienna:
Erste Oesterreichische Fahnenfabrik
Am Hof 5
A-1010 Vienna
Phone: +43-1-5332582
Fax: +43-1-533258236

They should be able to provide Burgenland Flags in all shapes and sizes;
however, the e-mail address might be an old one. I suggest you fax.

Gerhard writes:

in BB-Newsletter you asked for URL's of firms selling or producing flags.
Check out the following:

http://www.gastrotrends.at/kunden_index.htm and look for "Fahnen-Gärtner".
They don't have a homepage of their own, but you'll find their postal address
and the phone number there.


Susan writes: As everyone seems to be Burgenland "recipe crazy", I thought I
would tell you about a cookbook my wonderful Burgenland cousin, Anneliese
Hetlinger, gave to me while I was over there last week. It is called The
Cooking of Burgenland, and is authored by Alois Schmidl. The best part is
that it has been translated into English with American measurements. It was
translated by Robert Szinovatz, and published in 1992 by Edition Roetzer,
Wien-Eisenstadt. Anneliese bought it for us at a gift shop in Rust. The
address of the company that published the cookbook is Edition Roetzer,
Mattersburger Strasse 25, A-7000 Eisenstadt. By the way, there is an
excellent book/stationery store in Stegersbach that has an even bigger
selection of Burgenland books than the one in Gussing. (Ed. Note: -recipes
from this book are featured in the bi-monthly Burgenländische Gemeinschaft

Our trip was fabulous. The superlatives everyone uses when writing their
trip reports are not exaggerations! If the angels smile down on some, they
were laughing and dancing while guiding us on our trip. Our relatives
welcomed us back as if we had personally left them just a few years ago,
rather than my g-g-g-grandfather in 1858. And after a couple of days,
everyone in our village of Lebenbrunn claimed us as their relatives. And as
we found out, we were! The very first day, Klaus Gerger stopped by our
gasthof to welcome us... But I am getting ahead of myself. I only wanted to
tell you about the cookbook right now and will follow up with a trip report
at a later date.

One more thing, just to let you know, the Burgenland Bunch is actually
getting quite a reputation in Burgenland. (A good one, as far as I can tell!)
Almost everywhere we went they had heard of us. Including both the civil
and Catholic archives in Eisenstadt. I would recommend any members
corresponding with Burgenland officials to identify themselves as Burgenland
Bunch members. Well, until I get off cloud 9, sincerely, Susan Peters


Sometimes those Hungarian records can be garbled or misinterpreted. Then
someone asks a question and the waters can become even muddier.

Maureen Tighe-Brown responds to a previous newsletter question:

"I'm responding to the following excerpt from our latest BBunch newsletter:

Question: << (record) says Furst, Gyorgy es Honigschnabl, Maria, parafztok.
Would this be a set of parents or god parents???>>

Answer: <<If you have the child's surname, the father can't have another name
unless illegitimate...>>

In the Deutschkreutz records, every baptismal record appears in that way. It
should really read "nee Honigschnabl, Maria," as this is the mother's maiden

Thanks for an exceptionally interesting set of new letter segments; extremely
varied, and for sure, something for everyone."


You can't be interested in family history without wondering what the earliest
origin of your family, tribe or race might be. The centuries give way to
milleniums and the milleniums to eons and even longer. If you follow this to
its conclusion, you begin to wonder about the origin of the species. Much
work is underway to find the missing "links" in the homo sapien story. A
recent question from Kathleen Kelly piqued my interest and caused me to
provide my thoughts.

Kathleen writes: Subj: Hungarian-Mongolian Connection

I thought I would forward to you some information I have been collecting
which might be of interest to some of the Burgenland Bunch who have Hungarian

About ten years ago one of my sisters, who is in the medical field, ran some
blood tests on family members and discovered we have a genetic marker that is
usually only found in Asians and African Americans. And I would say that
approximately 20-25% of my Tschida family descendants have somewhat
Asian-shaped eyes. This intrigued me, and a few years ago I mentioned it to
a Hungarian scholar who told me that it is unusual for a person of Hungarian
descent not to have either Northern Chinese, Siberian or Mongolian blood.
Later that same year another sister of mine, who has said eyes, was teaching
English as a Second Language to Asians and they asked her what part of Asia
she came from. She told them that it was possible that she did have some
Asian blood because of the tests run. All the Asians in the class agreed she
was Mongolian.

Last evening I attended a reception and I happened to meet the Ambassador for
Mongolia to the UN and we spoke of Mongolia, and somehow I mentioned the
above story to him. He said that in the last few years there has been a lot
of interest on the part of the Hungarians to trace their roots and extensive
research has been done. The Ambassador went on to say that it has been
researched and authenticated that the Hungarians descended from the Mongols,
as did the Native American Indians. The Hungarians are currently in Mongolia
making a film relating to this subject of their ancestry. He did not know
what the name of the film because it is still in production.

I told the above to a friend of my mother, whose husband's father came from
the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and she was amazed because she said her husband
and her daughter both had the above mentioned eyes, and she always wondered
where they came from. So in case there are others who may be interested, I
am sending this on to you. I might also mention that I have always had an
unexplainable interest in visiting Mongolia, and last month I even signed up
for a Smithsonian Associates Conference on Mongolia that will be held in
Washington, D.C. in September. Now perhaps I can explain some of that

Editor's Reply (in which I try to summarize my understanding of a lot of
recent interesting theories of the qrigin of the species):

I'm not an anthropologist by any means, but I have read some of the latest
findings concerning the origin of our species as well as the origin of the
Magyars. To equate Caucasian, Negroid and Mongol (Asiatic might be a better
term) sub-species of homo sapiens, we must first develop their origin. There
is of course a gap of many hundreds of thousands of years between first
homo-sapiens and Magyars. It makes for an interesting article which I'll try
to develop.

If someone were to say that the Hungarians (Magyars) stem from the Mongolian
species; I'm afraid I would have to ask (tongue in cheek) where, when and
how? To many countries, origin has great significance. For instance, the
Romanians claim they are descendants of Thracians from before the Roman
period (pre 100AD) in order to establish an earlier claim to Transylvania
then the Hungarians who came five hundred years later (900AD. They feel this
allows them to justify ethnic cleansing. Governments always tend to support
the theories that are favorable to their nationalistic aspirations. Origins;
however, are still far from being finite, as the following shows.

The current most widely accepted theory of the origin of our "homo sapien"
species seems to follow a double "out of Africa" scenario (recently covered
in a PBS Television documentary). The first may have resulted in a movement
into Europe of "homo erectus", probably the origin of what we know as
Neanderthal man. Whether there were subsequent evolvements from them is
obscure. Little is known of their period or disappearance. Climactic changes
suggest they could have migrated as well and, in the large time frame in
which they existed, they in turn could have evolved other sub-species and
have been absorbed by them or later by homo-sapiens. Likewise there appears
to also have been initial movement out of Africa to the east and south in
Asia as well. Again, whether by "homo erectus", Neanderthal or some other sub
species has not yet been determined.

In the second "out of Africa" migration, many hundreds of millenniums later,
"homo sapiens" probably evolved as we know them today (later giving rise to
the European or Caucasian species-this later evolves even further into
Mediterranean, Alpine, Slavic, Germanic, etc.-the so-called Indo-Aryan and
then their many tribal groups). Whether similar Negroid and Mongol (Asiatic)
groups evolved then or in the first "out of Africa" scenario is still a

So, did the first or second migration out of Africa gave rise to the
Mongolian (Asiatic, Chinese, Sino, Micro-Melanesian, etc.) Likewise, the
species that were the pre-tribal origin of the Magyars or other "steppe"

We do know that the Magyars are of Finno-Ugric extraction. As such they
differ in language and culture from all other Europeans. The late 500AD
period is as far back as can be determined with some degree of assurance,
although the proto-Finns are reputed to have broken off and migrated to the
Baltic regions about 2000BC. From that point, the remainder (the
proto-Magyar) are held to have migrated south into richer pasture land
becoming nomadic pastoralists. Whether movement was caused by climactic
changes or displacement by other tribes has not been established.

One homeland of the Finno-Ugric has been traced to the southern Urals but not
further east to the Mongolian plains. Any connection to Mongolian origins
must therefore predate that time. Certainly the Mongol physical resemblance
is there as you mention. The "epithantic fold over the eyelids" for instance
is most notable. Also the "Hunnish" culture and association so evident in the
earlier European periods seems to indicate a connection (Hungarian stems from
the word for Hun-Ungur). Europeans considered early Magyars to be Huns.
However, you can counter with "what happened to facial and body hair and skin
coloration?" Hair is mostly lacking in the Mongoloid (as well as the American
Indian), present in some degree in the Magyar. Skin coloration also differs.

It's interesting that even though my ancestors are German except for one
Magyar g-grandmother and one perhaps Slavic (?) g-grandfather, their
descendants have a minor epithantic fold. Hirsute and color characteristics
are like most Caucasians. Of course the Huns, Mongols and other Asiatic
invaders of Europe left their genes wherever they went, as did the Greeks and
Romans before them.

The above Magyar theory is based mostly on the study of languages. Another
group called the "orientalists" claim that the cradle of the Magyars was not
the southern Urals but instead the Turanium Plain in central Asia (formerly
Soviet Turkestan). This region stretches eastward from the Caspian Sea to
Lake Balchas. Ancient records call the area Scythia. A living tradition fed
by folklore holds that the Magyars were either part of or closely acquainted
with this group who built a vast Scythian empire about 500BC.

There are some who hold that the Magyars were even exposed to the Sumerian
culture which inhabited the region as early as 3000 BC. From this area arose
empires built by the Huns, Avars, Khazars and various other Turkic groups.
The Magyar had relations with all of them at one time or another. The Avars
subsequently established a Khanate in Pannonia (including Burgenland) in the
period 500-800AD. They were destroyed by the Franks under Charlemagne in the
late 700's, giving rise to the first Germanic presence in Burgenland.

So we have lots of possibilities including intermarriage and addition of
alien genes affecting physical characteristics. There was much movement and
counter movement of the species prior to recorded history and the Magyars
could well be an off shoot or later development of one of them or from what
little we know of the Mongolian or Chinese groups. Something like the
following (there are extremely large unknown gaps of time between the first
nine segments):

o out of Africa I or II?
o evolvement of the Mongolian (Asiatic) species?
o migration of a sub-species west?
o evolvement of Finno-Ugric from one of the above
o evolvement of Magyar I
o migration south and west
o association with Scythians and Sarmatians?
o association of MagyarI with steppe races (Huns, Mongols, Pechenegs, Alans,
Onogurs, Turkic-Bulgars, etc.)?
o evolvement of Magyar II (the tribes of Arpad)
o forays into western Europe, 800AD
o defeat at Lechfeld, 955AD
o withdrawal into Pannonia (the Hungarian Plain)
o forays into the southern Slavic lands (Serbia, Croatia)
o establishment of the Hungary and Hungarians we know today

It has long been held that our own American Indians have a Mongolian origin
and arrived via a Bering Sea land bridge. Here too, other theories have
appeared. Maybe Magyar origins are related to those of the American tribes.

Recent archaeological finds on the west coasts of both North and South
America have triggered some interesting counter theories. Our "Indians" could
well have evolved from a southern "out of Africa" species or Neanderthal
sub-species. The ocean currents sweep eastward and similarities between
Asiatic and Central and South American cultures are too obvious to be
discounted. Likewise there could have been many migrations, both pre and post
Bering land bridge. There is still too large a time gap between "out of
Africa" and tribal (racial) formation to form conclusive proof of these kinds
of origins. Even our western Indian tribes spoke of the "old ones" (Anasazi?)
here long before them.

Of course, in any family history, for the most of us, the time before 1500AD
is a never never land of theory, conjecture and myth. Still, it poses
tantalizing questions and probabilities. Perhaps recent and future
developments in genetics will provide the answers-just imagine a family
history encompassing such a time frame!

A most interesting subject but still fraught with changes and possibilities.
I hope I haven't taken any out of context and I'm sure there are others
unknown to me. I might suggest some further reading which I've enjoyed:

oIn Search of the Indo-Europeans, J. P. Mallory, Thames & Hudson, 1996,
origins of Indo-Europeans based on language

oThe Spirit of Hungary (very biased but much fact), Stephen Sisa, Rakoczi
Foundation, 1990, traces movement of the Magyar tribes

oA History of Hungary, Sugar, Hanak, Frank Indiana University Press, 1994, a
brief synopsis of Magyar origins, migration and then much national formation

oGesta Hungarorum & The Deeds of the Hungarians, Simon of Keza, CEU Press,
1999, what was known orally in the 14th century (much has been proven false)

oThe Oxford Companion to Archaeology, B. Fagan Editor, Oxford Univ. Press,
1996, has archaelogical support for theories

There are also works concerning language, archaeological and anthropological
studies which support some of the theories. Marija Gimbutas (professor
emerita of European archaeology-UCLA) has done some outstanding work in this
area (Civilization of the Goddess, Harper-Collins, 1991 and others). She and
others lean toward a theory of an early European period of maternal
(pre-patriarchal) harmony and peace which was shattered by migrations of
pastoral warrior races from the east. The first introduction of Asiatic genes
to the west? In studying pre-recorded history, you encounter some fascinating
theories. As one genealogist said to another, in front of the grave of Adam
and Eve' "well, I guess that's it!"

(from Albert Schuch)

Time for a brief account of last Saturday's meeting with BB members Hap
Anderson, Susan Peters, James Grassinger, Wendy Grassinger, Phyllis
Sauerzopf, Angela Latta and your cousin Klaus Gerger in Stegersbach. I had
already met Phyllis and Angela on the day of their arrival in Vienna, and I
had seen photos of Susan and Hap, so it was easy to find them outside the
church at Stegersbach. My parents, Aunt Maria and Uncle Edi from Stegersbach,
my sister Inge and my friend Elisabeth were also there.

The mass with Bishop Iby lasted from 5 till 6 p.m., and when we left the
church it had already started to rain. So the open-air celebration on
Northampton Square had to be cancelled and the festival continued in the old
schoolhouse of Stegersbach. The "Burgenländische Gemeinschaft" celebrated the
25 year partnership between Stegersbach and Northampton, PA, but apparently
not a single person from Northampton was present. The traditional group tour
had been cancelled with short notice due to the illness of Tessie Teklits,
who had been organizing it. A celebration in Northampton was scheduled for
the very same hour.

Nonetheless a few American Burgenländers from other regions attended the
festival in Stegersbach, including of course the above 6 members of the BB,
who received a special greeting from Dr. Walter Dujmovits, the president of
the "Burgenländische Gemeinschaft". He did so both in German and in English,
and he also came to our table to talk with the BB visitors in person. Hap and
Susan had bought his book and asked him to sign it, which he did. He also
asked Susan to send a report about the Minneapolis picnic of the BB for
his newsletter.

The local branch of the BB was represented by Klaus Gerger, Heinz Koller, my
sister Inge and myself. Klaus and Heinz also took part in the annual BG
picnic in Moschendorf on the next day. Klaus then came up with the idea of
organizing a BB picnic in Austria on the day of the BB picnic in Minneapolis.
A nice idea. He has meanwhile emailed the Austrian members, so we will soon
know if others want to take part.

Another subject we have been discussing is the name Burgenland Bunch and its
impact over here: People often are confused because they simply do not
understand the word "bunch". So we should really think about an official
German name. If you agree, I would like to discuss this with Klaus and with
those members who reply to his picnic email. (Ed. Note: I agree, the word
"Bunch" just does not translate well in German-one idea is to add "Burgenland
Internet Group" to our name. We'd still keep "Burgenland Bunch" as our
(newsletter continues as no. 85A)

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