CARMACK-L ArchivesArchiver > CARMACK > 2003-01 > 1043086622
From: "Dale Carmack" <>
Subject: Ann Black - Indian Heritage?
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:17:02 -0500
About 5 years ago, when I discovered Ann Black's parents/grandparents,
etc. I became convinced that all the rumors about her being of Cherokee
Indian heritage were unfounded, after all we knew who here parents were
and where they lived. I still have no proof either way but I have
received additional information lately (from another researcher) which
may lend credence to the theory that Ann had Indian ancestors. Here is
what I have found:
1. I thought we knew definitively who Ann's parents were and neither
had Indian ancestry. Ann's parents were John Black and Margaret Lyner.
Margaret's parents were Henry & Margaret Lyner. Margaret (wife of
Henry) was supposedly Margaret Clemons, daughter of Christian Clemons
and Cattherine Vogt. Cattherine's father was Johan Paulus Vogt, born
about 1680 in Luckenberg, Thalfany Village, Germany. He came to America
1733 on ship Charming Betty and Settled in Augusta Co., VA.
Johan Vogt died with a will dated 10-5-1759 and proved 8-18-1761. His
wife's name was Mary Katherine and their Children were Katherine Cleman,
Andrew & Caspar
Christian Cleman proved the will with the widow.
Christian Clemons married Catherine Vogt in Augusta Co., VA. Christian
died there with a will dated 1781 and he was deceased before 3-15-1781
According to his will he had a daughter named Margaret who married
Phillip Barrier. Phillip Barrier was born 1721 and he came to America on
the same ship as Johan Vogt.
As stated in yesterday's email, How could Margaret Lyner be a daughter
of Christian Clemons if his will in 1781 called his daughter Margaret
Barrier, wife of Phillip Barrier?
Also, on a land deed in 1807 for Henry Black it says his land borders
Eliz. Lyner, and previous deeds called this land Henry Lyner's land.
Therefore, Henry was deceased after the tax records for 1806 and before
the tax records for 1807. This could also show that Margaret's actual
name was Elizabeth Margaret Lyner or Margaret Elizabeth Lyner. When
Henry Black sold his land in Nov. of 1808 his deed also calls her
Thus we do not know Ann's grandmother's name (except that she was called
Margaret.) Could she have Indian ancestry?
2. Ann's father (John Black had 2 brothers, William and Henry and 2
sisters Hannah and Elleanor). Research from each of those family lines
(except Elleanor - descendants not identified or interviewed) claims
Indian ancestry. One researcher from William Black's line grew up with
descendants of Hannah's in Indiana. William's family claim that William
married a Indian, and that the Black's were Scottish. Hannah's
descendants claim that she was part Indian. Henry Black, moved away
from William and Hannah to California. Several of his descendants, claim
that they were part Indian, but did not know where it came from.
Parthena Black, born in 1820 in Pike Co., Indiana, was a grand-daughter
of William Black. Her picture apparently shows a lot of Indian
characteristics (much like the photo we have of Ann Black). Parthena
claimed that her great-grandmother was Cherokee Indian.
Add to this the fact that Ann Black has always been stated to be part
Indian and we have each line of the Black family claiming to have Indian
ancestry. In addition, these families (William, John, Henry, & Hannah)
were mostly geographically separated after their marriages and therefore
could not have known of each other's claims of Indian heritage. For
example Parthena had never heard of Ann Black, so she could not have
been influenced by the claims people have made about Ann being part
Therefore all sides have similar stories, but no written proof of Indian
3. William Black's second son was named John. In William's pension
papers his son John gave his affidavit and he stated the following "I
was married in 1811 by Humphrey Posey" then he must have been stopped by
the judge and the clerk drew a line through this, like it had nothing to
do with his fathers pension application. Why did he want to make a point
of this? Who was Humphrey Posey? A book "A Sketch of the life of Elder
Humphrey Posey" by Robert Fleming of Newman, GA. gives a good account of
this man. This book states that Humphrey Posey was the first Baptist
Missionary to the Cherokee Indians who came to Buncombe County, NC in
1804 to help the Cherokee's and in 1819 he established a school called
Valley Town for the Cherokee's. He was devoted to the Cherokee's. Why
and how did John Black get involved with him in order for him to perform
his wedding in 1811? John made a point of this by mentioning it on the
affidavit. This is just another item that seems to indicate that they
were part Cherokee or connected in some way.
4. William Black was in Haywood Co., NC in 1810 when his eldest
daughter married there, and then John was married in 1811 by Humphrey
Posey. Humphrey Posey lived in Buncombe Co., where he was trying to
convert the Cherokee Indians to Christianity. Haywood Co. was formed in
1809 from Buncombe Co. William had a daughter born in 1807, and she died
in 1849, therefore no census record was available to show where she was
born, but her son shows that she was born in Tenn., so if this is true
then William left GA 1806, in Tenn. 1807, in NC by 1810, in KY by 1813,
and in Indiana in 1814.
Has anyone heard that Margaret Lyner (Widow of Henry Lyner) died in
Haywood Co., NC? If so please pass along any information on this.
Thus, research into this Black family genealogy does not provide any
written evidence to support anything but family folklore of Indian
heritage. However, I am more inclined to believe that there is an
Indian connection in the Black family. It could be Ann's grandmother,
or more likely the mother of William, John, Henry, Hannah & Elleanor
I just thought I would throw this out to the list for discussion and
|Ann Black - Indian Heritage? by "Dale Carmack" <>|