CARPENTER-L Archives

From: John Carpenter <>
Subject: Part 2 by Tony Carpenter in the UK
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:09:12 -0700

Dear Folks,

Tony has a sense of "humour" ...

TC- "Do you keep a troshin" is a local Norfolk saying. It comes from the
days when the peasants spent their days picking up stones off the fields
for the Farmer, It meant "do you keep a going".

JRC- Keep on Trucking - 18 & 4 Wheeler version. "Keep Tromping" is
another version popular at the turn of the century and was even in a
popular song "Tromp Tromp Tromp!"

TC- Here is another saying "Hold you hard" I had great fun with that one
when I answered the Phone in the USA. have a guess at that.

JRC- Anybody got a guess for that?

JRC- My favorite English phrase is "Come on by and knock me up." It
means come on by my house and knock on my door!

Here is another few pages of Tony carpenter's material.

*****************************************************

By Tony Carpenter in the UK

Part 2

-----any family that has survived from the early days of history has
this determination to bond. Why ask you do you want to find your
ancestors and living relations, why are trying to contact each other
does it give you a comfortable feeling of security to know there is many
of us in this world left to progress the family forward through to many
generations of the new Millennium.

Man has been blessed with the urge to be creative it is a driving force
that sets us apart from others in the animal kingdom. The human race has
develop in all respects from this, The creation of the family as we no
it today, to the conquest of outer space, comes from this driving force.
When this urge is diminished as in some branches of a family they fade
away from history, as will the human race when it losses the ability to
be creative it will turn on its self and destroy all that has been
constructed over the generations. I am happy and contented that my
particular branch of the Carpenters is still branching out to occupy
several generations to come and are blessed with the creative desire,
and I hope that there are many others doing the same.

A thousand years of one Family's history. What will be the consequence
of this information on today's generation? Pride, shame, guilt, or an
attempt to find the answer to the old age question "Who am I and why do
I look and act in the way I do." Can genealogy explain these questions?
How do we put it in a form that can be analysed so a conclusion can be
reached? Can we rely on ancient documents and other records to give us
an insight of our ancestors in a given period of time, or by studying
the history of the period. We have to, as it is the only reference
available to us, but we must always understand that all material is open
to interpretation.

The CARPENTER Family has been researched back to the 10th century and
traced to the French family of Melun. There are many branches of the
tree and some seventy thousand names are included in the database. This
book is only looking at my line that has been researched by my late
brother and I, working together for over fifteen years, plus associated
branches of interest. I have decided that our work should now be
recorded and distributed in the year of the millennium, a thousand years
of one family. I will try to explain in plain English what effect it has
had on my family and me.

The name of Carpenter comes from the Crusading French Knight, the
Viscount de Melun born about 1042. He was nicknamed "The Carpenter"
"because of the weighty strokes of his battle axe in battle." The great
strength and axe were associated with the carpenter's trade. "No weapon
could [opponents' weapons that is] be found that could withstand the
power of his strikes. The heaviness of his weapons resulted of him being
feared in combats". Carpenters of the time must have been among the
most "well built people"

Let us look at this last paragraph "well built people". Today the family
are still well built and strong, our average height is 5ft 10inches,
Chest 44inches, inside leg measurement 29 1/2 inches, You must have the
inside leg measurement to be a true Carpenter, a standing joke in the
family. Where did this saying originate? I can remember my father saying
it, and I have repeated it to my grandchildren. So can we surmise that
physical attributes as well as family sayings can be passed down from
generation to generation? At the age of seventy I can remember five
generations of our family.

I spent some time in Orlando Florida USA. The condominium complex we
were living in was managed by a Carpenter, Evelyn Garrison. She
remarked to me that I looked just like one of her uncles, she showed
some old pictures and sure enough there was the Family Likeness
including the white beard that I have. She introduced me to one of her
grandchildren who was almost identical in appearance to one of my
brother Denis's children. It would seem that our physical make up has
been handed down through the Generations. Only today I was looking
across the park to where my grandchildren were playing, and for an
instant I thought that the eldest grandson was my son [his father]. I
believe this true in most families even when a child is young someone
will say he is the spitting image of so. Photographs will show the
similarity of appearance later in the book.

Again I would like you to think on this have you ever thought you had
been at a place before? It has happen to me twice in my life. I once
went to the town of Byfleet and it felt so familiar to me, I knew I had
not been there before. It was not until we trace the family that I found
several of my ancestors had lived and died there and they were resting
in the churchyard. The other time is when I served in the Army in
Palestine and Malta I felt that I knew the country and the people. I
cannot explain this in a way that you will believe but I am sure I am
not the only one amongst us who have had these feelings.

Am I proud of being associated with a Crusading Knight? I know of one
member of the family, a historian, who is trying to disassociate us from
this connection, "a mass murderer" I must admit when I read the history
of the crusades, I was horrified at the extent of the killing and
cruelty. Should I feel shame, should I hide the connection? Definitely
not. A family history must show a true record of its roots, warts and
all, it is not up for censorship.

So we have Saints and Sinners in the family, light and dark. As an
artist I know that you must have contrast in your picture to show the
full beauty of the subject. Every family has it black sheep, and we must
not judge our ancestors on the morals of today. Only the strong survived
in the early days of history, and it helped if you were a Knight or a
Bishop, and we had both in the family. Can you alter history we know we
cannot but only learn from it but do we? I think not; our arm forces are
still sent out to crusade by the politicians to right the wrongs in
their eyes. Have we changed?

We will start our family tree from William The Carpenter, but will
included his conceivable ancestors from 920.

I will try to write this book so you the reader find it interesting and
informative, and in plain English. I hope it might help you understand
who you are and explain why you act and have ways of behaving which are
quite natural to you; but in other people's eyes be a little eccentric.
Lets start at the beginning as good as place as any.

The French town of Melun is believed to be our family seat. Caesar
said of Melun that it was a town of great importance. The Normans sack
the town in 845. And it was siege in the year of 1429-30 by Charles the
VII. Severely damaged in 1944. A Prefecture and market Town. The ancient
town expanded from an island in the river of the Seine very close too
the Forrest of Fontainnebleau and the castle of Vaux {c 1615-61} It has
two very old churches. Known through its history for the production of
the famous French cheese Brei and Beauce. also glass, pottery, leather
and sugar refining.


King Hughes Capet gave Melun to his favourite Bouchard. In the reign of
Robert Eudes the count of Champagne bought the town. It was taken back
by the King in the year of 999 it had been sold by Le Chateleen and his
wife they did not profit long as the king had them hung. A sad end for
an estate agent though, I know some of you would agree with this
punishment.

Josselin I. was the first of the line, that has been traced to date,
named Viscount of Melun, born 920. He gave the village Noisy-le-Sec to
the monastery of Saint Maur-des-Fossez. He then took up the monk's habit
that is where he died on the 19 March in Year of 998 or 999. His death
caused a feud between the Manasses who took the side of Le Chatelian,
who was his grandson and his rightful heir Herve.

The following line is the best guess to date from all the information we
have at hand to date, a list of all documents researched will be noted
at the end of this book. I ask the reader to get from his mind that
travelling any distance was not as simple as it is to day, they had no
cars to jump in and go on to a motorway, Because the family was based on
the river Seine it gave them a highway to travel abroad.

Descendants of Josselin I DE Melun

to be continued ...

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• Part 2 by Tony Carpenter in the UK by John Carpenter <>