CELTIC-ROYALTY-L ArchivesArchiver > CELTIC-ROYALTY > 2008-02 > 1202734229
From: DAVID TURNER <>
Subject: [CELTIC-ROYALTY] Begelly - Protheoe/Thomas and other families
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:50:29 +0000 (GMT)
See text in red below.
Let me know what assistance you refer to and I will see if I can help.
In a message dated 06/02/2008 00:43:54 GMT Standard Time, writes:
I shall reply where possible in between the questions.
----- Original Message ----
From: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 3 February, 2008 2:03:42 PM
Subject: Begelly - Protheoe/Thomas and other families
It was good to meet with you at the Pembrokeshire Records Office on Friday.
LIKEWISE I HAVE A SERIOUS PROJECT THAT REQUIRES ASSISTANCE IF ABLE
We briefly discussed David Lewis. Here's confirmation of his marriage and death and the sources for these:
Bride: Hannah, Minwear dau. of John Lewis of Mounton.
Source: marriage notice in Pembrokeshire Herald
Source: death notice in Haverfordwest and Milford Haven Telegraph
For some reason I did not collect the publication date of the newspapers but these are likely to be 2-3 weeks after the event.
THANK YOU I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SOURCE THE MARRIAGE
There's several parts of your family that have challenged me and on which I would welcome your comments.
1. Joseph Protheroe (b c. 1772): most of the children of his first marriage leave the area. I had come across some of them marketing gardening Essex/N London. Any idea why they left almost en masse?
NO IDEA AT PRESENT, THIS LINE IS RELATIVELY NEW TO ME, BUT I SUSPECT ECONOMICS AND GROWTH OF FAMILIES. WILLS MAY PROVIDE FURTHER INFO. BUT I DO NOT FEEL THIS IS THE SAME LINE IN THE SOUTH OF ENGLAND. MANY STAYED IN PENFRO, THE MALE BRANCHES THAT MOVED RESIDED IN THE MIDLANDS. OR IS A LINE INCORRECT?
Joseph's sons: Alex (b 1804), George (b 1806) and Joseph (b 1808) all appear in England in the census returns, ALex and Joseph as nurserymen. Alex even appears as a witness in a court case at Old Bailey. Have a look on the Old Bailey online records if you are interested.
2. David Thomas (b c.1754) married Jane Morse. I have assumed this is Jane Morse daughter of Thomas and Martha Morse of Begelly (see Will of Thomas Morse SD/1776/4), Does this correlate with what you have? If so, is Thomas Morse who lived Saundersfoot in 1740-50s the same man? The latter is referenced in several leases and a will of Henry Morse of Williamsburg, USA (in the PCC collection at the National Archives ref 11/1014) who leaves £100 or so to the son of Thomas Morse of Saundersfoot.
WHO WHERE THE PARENTS OF DAVID THOMAS?
No idea - your comments about Griffith Thomas being his father is all I have! IN 1791 Land Tax for Rock, a Widow Thomas is the occupier; in 1796 John Brace occupies; he marries a Jane Thomas and I did wonder if she was antyhing to do with your Griffith. HOwever, I am erring against this as the marriage takes place in Carew and Brace was from Reynoldston.
DO YOU HAVE OTHER CHILDREN FOR THOMAS AND MARTHA? THIS COULD BE VERY INTERESTING.
4 other kids: Isaac, William, George and THomas. Thomas elder is the scion of the large Morse family in Begelly into 20th century. Again, I err against Thomas Morse Begelly being the same as Thomas Morse Saundersfoot. The latter signs a lease for land in St Issells and names 3 kids as the lives all unrelated to the the Begelly list above. In the 1726-43 Picton rental, a Margaret Morse holds land at Broom. I assume she is the mother of the THomas Morse of Begelly some of whose kids lease land around Broom but can't prove it - yet!
3. The Saes connection with Thomas Protheroe (b c 1735) confuses me. It seems that James Saes farmed Hackett in the early 18th century. This is based on the Picton estate rental (NLW Picton Castle 362); his will (SD/1740/2) confirms he was a yeoman but has nothing in it about Hackett. The 1768 poll book states that THomas Protheroe is entitled to vote due to a lease granted to his father in law "40 years ago." I have assumed that this is not the same Thomas Protheroe who marries Ann Phelps in 1770 as neother bride nor groom is shown as a widow/er (unless I have missed something) at that marriage. Any idea what the link is? Is there a missing generation?
SURELY THIS MUST CONNECT THOMAS PROTHEROE WITH HACKETT, AS HIS CHILDREN WHERE BORN AT HACKETT, I CAN ONLY ASSUME HE OR HIS FATHER MAY HAVE ACQUIRED THE LEASE AFTER JAMES SAES AND HIS FAMILY. ALEXANDER PROTHEROE'S CHILDREN WHERE ALSO BORN AT HACKETT.
I have no problems with Thomas Protheroe (TP) and Hackett. Its the linking of TP to James Saes that challenges me. This is what I have in total on this:
Saes was leasing Hackett from Picton estate in 1719 rental (PC601) .
In 1740, James, in his will, leaves his interest in a lease of 30/9/1724 granted by Picton estate (surely the lease to Hackett) to William Thomas, his nephew.
TP is confirmed at Hackett in 1766-7 (PC 362). The wording in the rental says that his possession is based on a lease for HAckett granted to James Saes in 1724
Without mentioning Hackett, TP is entitled to vote in the 1768 election as he holds leasehold messuage and lands granted in a lease to his father in law "40 years ago."
(TP does not vote in the 1765 election but a William Thomas does! The poll book simply states that Thomas is voting as he holds lands in Begelly; there's no reference to Hackett. Interesting but not compelling!)
Somwehere there's a link here. Is William Thomas, the nephew, one of your Thomas family? Based on the chronology, there's a missing generation and William Thomas could be it - or he could be a red herring. Why do I think there's a missing generation? We know from ages of the 3 lives for James' 1724 lease that TP was too young to have married one of the daughters - TP born around 1735 and Ann Davies, James' daughter, born c 1704. Unless James had a daughter born very late in life, the TP marrying in 1770 Ann Phelps cannot have been his son in law. Grandson (-in-law) is more likely. Could the TP who votes in 1768 be the father of TP who marries Ann Phelps? This could explain the father in law coment.
We need to find a rental or some other source from 1740-65 to give us a clue or, even better, that gives us the answer! I have exhausted leases and rentals at NLW and don;t think there's anything obvious at PCRO to help so we need to walk the road less travelled to find our answer. I am a member of the Society of Genealogists in LOndon but have not tapped some of their interesting sources (such as the Bernau Index - mostly references to Chancery/Exchequer court cases) to see what they have. I shall be there this week and have made a note to look see if there's anything of interest in there to help on this question. The Quarter Sessions (QS) records at PCRO are full of wonderful things; I have worked on these from 1785 onwards but the records go back much further. Its just that we don't know if there's anything relating to our problem in there - like looking for a needle in a haystack without knowing there's a needle there! I managed to cover 10 years of
QS records per day when I was down there last week so 3 days work would cover the period in question (ie 1740-65).
4. You talked through the THomas' family history with the various farms in the north part of Begelly parish. That was very interesting. I had thought the Powell family (mentioned in several wills and various early Picton rentals) farmed the main Thomas Chapel farm. I have been perplexed that farm names such as Ramshorn and Rock do not appear in these earlier rentals. All in all, as you can no doubt tell, I am just plain confused by the 18th century history of the THomas Chapel farms.
HAVE THE RECORDS FOR THESE FARMS BEEN DESTROYED? RAMSHORN, HACKETT, CARN, COLD INN, ROCK, COWSLAND, HOLLY HILL, ARE ALL LEASEHOLDS RELEVANT TO BRANCHES OF THE FAMILY. ROCK FARM MUST BE RELEVANT TO GRIFFITH THOMAS AND HIS ELDER AS THE LEASES WERE UP AT THE DEATH OF WILLIAM THOMAS 1830. THERE IS ANOTHER RELEVANT TO HENRY PHILLIPS/PHILIPPS WHICH I HAVE NOT LOCATED YET.
Here's what I have starting with the latest in time:
Begelly Land Tax return 1786:
Ramshorn: occupier David Thomas; proprietor: Picton estate
(Golden) Rock: Griffith Thomas; Picton estate
HAckett: Thomas Protheroe; Picton estate
Carn: Richard Phelps; Harcourt Powell estate
Carn: WIlliam Bowen; Richard Wright esq
Cowsland: THomas LLoyd; Picton estate
Cowsland: Widow Smith; Sir Hugh Owen
Thomas Chapel: William Morgan (with several much smaller tenancies)
I don't think Cold Inn was a farm until Joseph P's 2 marriages amalgamate a dispsarate collection of lands in early 19th century. Trolly Hill (?) does not appear in the records at all at this point.
1770 rent roll of Harcourt Powell estate:
Carn: Richard Phelps
Cowsland: John Smith
1769 Picton estate rental (difficult to read)
Cowsland: Henry Jermin
THomas Chapel: John Powell
unnamed: THomas Protheroe
1766-7 Picton rental
Cowsland: Henry Jermin (pointing back to 99 yr lease to Richard Jermin dated 1702)
Hackett: see above Hackett-specific discussion
Thomas Chapel: John Powell's execs; pointing back to leases of 1718 and 1748 granted to Andrew Powell
Earlier rentals do not throw any clearer light on this.
So 1786 is the earliest direct reference to Rock farm; I have found no links between the Jermins at Cowsland and Thomas Lloyd later at Cowsland and any of the local Begelly families. You can see why I was interested in your comments about the Thomas family link to the various north Begelly farms. It may well be there - just hidden in marriages!
5. I had a look through the family tree information you gave me: some comments -
Benjamin and Ann Protheroe had a daughter Hester (bapt 8/9/1799, Begelly). She marries John Eynon 18/1/1819 in Begelly and they have at least 8 kids. The Eynons were an extensive farming family in the area with some mining connections and a link by marriage into James Mark Child's family of Begelly House.
I HAVE ACCESS TO A PEDIGREE, WHICH REQUIRES CONFIRMATION
Rebecca Protheroe bapt Jan 1778 - she is new to me. Is her bapt in the Begelly baptism register? Did she marry in St Issells 11/3/1815? If so, her husband was William Llewhellin, farmer at Trewern in SI, a large farm.
NO, DIFFERENT PERSON AND BRANCH OF PROTHEROE, WHICH IS WHY I ATTENDED THE RECORDS OFFICE TO TRY AND LINK THE TWO
Interesting and surprising.
Do you have any more information on the father (ie occupation and name) of William Nash Morgan who marries Charlotte Williams Protheroe? The Nash element interests me.
I HAVE SOME INFO BUT IT IS PATCHY, THE SURNAME WAS MORGANS, NOT MORGAN. CENSUS INDICATES A FATHER OF EITHER RICHARD OR MORE LIKELY THOMAS MORGANS. GRANDFATHER WAS RICHARD MORGANS B. 1770
I am amazed by the close kinship connections centred on the Protheroe/Thomas family that links many of the "yeoman" farmers of Begelly/Reynoldston/SI together. If the link to the Morse family (see point 2 above) is good, then this is doubly so. In this context, the departure of so many of JOseph Protheroe's children for diverse pastures new seems strange.
I HAVE OTHER PROTHEROE MARRIAGES TO MORSE, Yes, I have just checked my files as well.
Anyway, that's it: I have unloaded my "challenges"! If there's anything I can help you with, do let me know.
Just to be clear, I am not a family history professional in any way, not even "semi". I am resting between jobs currently and am indulging my hobby on a fulltime basis.
In trying to reconstruct the population of the Begelly area (1790-1900) I have picked up some interesting facts about many people's lives. I have no easy way of transfering it. However, are there several people you are particularly interested in? If so, I can extract the informtation and send it through to you.
ANY OF THE EARLY THOMAS, PROTHEROE, DAVIES, LEWIS, PHILLIPS, PHILIPPS ENTRIES ARE OF PARTICULAR INTEREST
ENTRIES FOR LEASES TO THE FARMS ABOVE
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