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From: "akeegan" <>
Subject: Re: [CIVIL-WAR-IRISH] Online article "Why the Irish FoughtfortheUnion"
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:18:11 -0500
References: <20070129163034.XDZW20479.mta16.adelphia.net@D71LT941>


Could it be that the North had a greater number of Irish soldiers only
because of the northern ports that the Irishmen came in happen
to be in the North? Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael H.Kane" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [CIVIL-WAR-IRISH] Online article "Why the Irish Fought
fortheUnion"


> Dear Mr. O'Malley:
> If you are truly interested in both CSA/Union Irish units, why would you
> make the following statement without any empirical data:
>
> "From what I've read, more is known about the north's unit in name, but
> the
> south had in ratio to it's smaller population, just as much if not more
> irish recruits in relation to the populus as a whole than the north.."
>
> Then you list Irish companies from only four CSA states: Virginia,
> Georgia,
> South Carolina, and Louisiana. Now I'm no CSA expert, but I have studied
> Irish units in both parts of the USA. Virginia had the Richmond,
> Montgomery
> Guards, Charleston had the Irish Volunteers (the oldest Irish militia
> company in the USA--formed in 1801), the Meagher Guards, and a third that
> I
> can't recall at this time. The Jasper Greens were an old company from
> Georgia, too.
>
> However this proves my thesis in a left handed fashion by using
> Philadelphia
> as a control group. With 100,000 people from Ireland plus first generation
> Irish-Americans, Philadelphia had a larger "Irish Village" to draw from
> than
> a smaller southern city.
>
> You have neglected to mention the political atmosphere against Irish
> militia
> companies in the North. Starting with the 1836 disbandment of the
> Montgomery
> Guards of Boston, northern state governments attacked and disbanded Irish
> militia companies in the 1840's and 1850's. This reaches its peak in 1855
> with the election of Nativist governors in Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and
> Massachusetts. For example, the Hibernia Greens of Philadelphia are
> battered
> again and again for wearing a GREEN coat, not the standard blue American
> coat. There s a hysterical fear that northern Irish militia companies are
> secretly aligned with the papacy or the Jesuits----or both, and are going
> to
> overthrow the US government. This occurs when the Whigs become Nativists
> and
> the Nativists blend into the Republican party. Meanwhile in the south, the
> Democrats hold the official state governments and the prejudice problem is
> not officially expressed..
> For an in depth cogent analysis of the problems northern militia
> companies,
> I recommend an article that I published in the winter 1991 Irish Sword,
> "The
> Irish Lineage of the 69th Pennsylvania Volunteers."
>
> Mike Kane
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Kevin O'Malley
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:58 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [CIVIL-WAR-IRISH] Online article "Why the Irish Fought for
> theUnion"
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> As a fan of the civil war, I favor both north and south and am interested
> in the irish participation on both sides, as I'm sure you are as well.
> From
> what I've read, more is known about the north's irish units in name, but
> the
> south had, in ratio to it's smaller population, just as much if not more
> irish recruits in relation to the popolus as a whole than the north.
>
> The following is a list of "Irish manned units" at that time in the
> confederacy from a book on Meagher's Irish Brigade by Russ A. Prichard
> Jr..
> I'm sure it is incomplete and some were pre war militia units...
>
> Irish Batallion (1st Virginia Infantry Batallion, Provional Army)
> Irish Brigade, Company A (Company I, 6th Louisiana Infantry)
> Irish Brigade, Company B (Company F, 6th Louisiana Infantry)
> Irish Jasper Greens (Company A, 1st Georgia Volunteers)
> Irish Volunteer Guards (A company of the 8th Georgia Infantry)
> Irish Volunteers, Company A (Company D, 1st Georgia Volunteers)
> Irish Volunteers, Company B (Company E, 1st Georgia Volunteers)
> Irish Volunteers, (Company F, 7th Louisiana Infantry)
> Irish Volunteers, (Company A, 1st Virginia Infantry Batallion, Provincial
> Army)
> Irish Volunteers, (Company C, 1st South Carolina Infantry Batallion)
> Irish Volunteers, (Company C, 19th Batallion Virginia Artillery)
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Kevin O'Malley
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Michael H.Kane" <> wrote:
> Dear Mr. Owen:
>
> I think you should reread my original message. It went right over your
> head.
> I am not denying that there were Irish born soldiers in the CSA, but I am
> denying there were these phantom Irish regiments in the CSA. I have read
> O'Grady's book, Gleeson's book, and several others--searching for proof
> and
> have only found a few companies--excepting the 10th Tennessee.
> I specifically avoided using the NY Irish Brigade in my Union example
> because of its nebulous mythological identity.
>
> Philadelphia seemed a fairer choice. Very few people
> know of its extensive Irish militia history. Yet you didn't comment on it.
>
> However CSA regiments needed a superstructure to build an organization. If
> you look at the sociological data, St. Louis is the only big city with
> enough Irish to raise a unit. So your anecdote about the capture of
> Colonel
> Mulligan's 23rd Illinois is well taken.
> By the way Mulligan's regiment was built around the three existing Irish
> militia companies in Chicago.
> CSA enthusiasts may be assured there were Irishmen serving in its ranks.
> However you need a very big "Irish Village" within an American city to
> provide the necessary manpower for a regiment or a brigade--let's not
> forget
> Corcoran's Irish Legion!
> By the way the Pittsburgh Hibernia Greens--renamed the Irish Independent
> Greens--served as I Company, 2nd Pa.Vols in the Mexican War.
>
> Mike Kane
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of James L. Owens
> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:02 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [CIVIL-WAR-IRISH] Online article "Why the Irish Foughtfor the
> Union"
>
> Michael,
>
> I am well aware of the Union Irish units. My Great-grandfather immigrated
> to Troy, NY about 1855 after service in the Crimea in the 21st Foot of the
> British Army. He served two hitches in the U.S. Navy assisting in the
> capture of the freebooter William Walker in Central America while serving
> in
>
> USS Wabash. He then returned to Troy, married and went into business. When
> the war started he sold the business and joined the 30th NY Volunteer
> Militia. After a period of time near Washington he volunteered to go the
> the
>
> western river gunboats.
>
> He served in USS Carondolet, Captain Walke and when Walke went to USS
> Lafayette he took John, his coxswain, with him. While In Carondolet he was
> aboard when Walke ran the gauntlet at Island No. Ten and also during the
> fight with CSS Arkansas. His actions at that time led Walke to nominate
> him
> for the Medal of Honor which he eventually got.
>
> When his enlistment was up he returned to Troy and six or seven months
> later
>
> enlisted in the 21st NY Cavalry and served mostly in the Shenandoah Valley
> until the war ended.
>
> My point was everyone knows about the Irish Brigade and Meagher of Sword
> and
>
> the 69th at Antietem, and a hundred other places, but many are surprised
> to
> learn that early in the war the Kelly's Irish Brigade of St. Louis, as
> part
> of the Missouri State Guard, captured 3500 Union troops and the Irish
> unit,
> styled Brigade, the 23d Illinois, in a battle at Lexington, Missouri.
> Neither of them were traditional Brigade sized but the name had a great
> history. John Kelly went on to be a Confederate Colonel.
>
> I have no idea why you think my intention was "wishful thinking". My
> intention was to draw attention to the frequently overlooked fact that
> there
>
> were many Irish units in the Confederate Army. Nearly every state had one
> or more Irish units. As in the North, many were started in the larger
> cities
>
> and existed before the war. The Savannah Jasper Greens, an Irish unit, for
> example were organized in Savannah in 1842 and served in the Mexican War.
> I
> suppose those men thought they were fighting for their country as did the
> Union soldiers.
>
> I do think that people who assert an interest in history and publish their
> thoughts on public message boards have a responsiblity to tell the whole
> story.
>
> I was born in the Bronx and lived upstate in New York and in New Jersey
> until my family moved to Maryland when I was twelve. As soon as I
> graduated
> from high school I left home and served in the Navy and Marine Corps for
> twenty-five years. I am not now, and never was, a supporter of the
> Confederate States of America. In fact, I am the token Yankee at the
> Montgomery County(MD) Civil War Roundtable.
>
> All the Best,
>
> Jim Owens
>
>
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