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From: michael johnson <>
Subject: Re: [COLCLOUGH] Bartholomew/Matthew (wives Warner/Bennett/Dalton)or is it THOMAS OF DELPH HOUSE? lol
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:18:50 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <406657.56671.qm@web52811.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Hi Gregg,

Just a point regarding Bartholomews birthdate. yes the date IS incorrect.

"George Colclough was born in 1577 in Blurton to Bartholomew Colclough and Elizabeth Madeley (married 30/06/1567 in Rocester, Staffs) and died in 1638."

So the locally "verified" Rocester record of his marriage to Elizabeth madeley has it at 1567, So the birthdate needs to be verified- as is often the case! but easilly corrected. This should assist in correcting the previous generations.

Regarding "wishful thinking". the reason I posted on this forum is to get definitive answers to the dates. And as I grew up in Boundary, Cheadle Staffs (under the Blurton Parish in historical records) and still live 2 miles from there! (the road is still called DELPHOUSE ROAD lol) Its interesting to know local history as well as my own.

One thing that IS certain is that Bartholomew lived at Delph house Boundary Cheadle and that at least he IS my direct ancestor. Dates DO get mixed up, that doesn't mean peerage is incorrect. What I would like to do is to continue to research my local records to get a definitive answer. We are quite lucky here in Staffordshire, We have excellent reference libraries and the "amazing" William Salt library. In fact the WIlliam Salt Library has several rather ancient books written which include the Draycotte/Colclough ancestry. As it needs a good session to go through the books I just havent had the time to squeeze it in yet! Unless someone on here has managed to do it already!...which would be nice! which is why I replied in the first place :)

>From Batholomew down my information is comfirmable thru "Adam Colclough's genealogy of April 28 1664 contained in the "Visitation of Staffordshire 1663-1664" of which a volume is here at the William Salt Library, staffs. I Just need to now push this back to verify his parents.

This is my familly tree! i have an open mind on where it goes. What is really important is not WHO is in my familly history, but what is verifiably factual. I have large doubts as to Mathew being Bart's father! but I'm in the right place to find out! :)

I've recently discovered John (colclough) over at http://members.fortunecity.com/chtii/colclough/thomas.htm. It seems he has researched his(my) colclough line as far back as its possible to! He has Bartholomews father down as a "THOMAS COLCLOUGH, OF DELPHHOUSE, WISE HIGHHOUGH" He also quotes that this info is from the 1663/64 visitation? So I'll have to go back and check, but it looks like this could be the REAL Bartholomews father! seems to fit!

Could I pitch that scenario out? Any opinions?

many thanks

Mike (Staffordshire Moorlands- England)

Gregg Bonner <> wrote: Hi Folks,

I thought I would chime in on this, since I have spent some time
looking over the various claims. I am not an expert on what is the
case, but I am pretty good at determining what can NOT be the case. I
think the first thing to keep in mind is that people have WANTED to
make a connection from their more recent COLCLOUGHs to Matthew
Colclough who married WARNER/DALTON/BENNETT, and they would use sketchy
scholarship and conflation to get there. Here are some things that I
would hope people will keep in mind when constructing their trees:

1. If Bartholomew Colclough was born in about 1563, then he clearly is
not the father of George Colclough (m. MADELY), born 21 Mar 1576/77,
since he would have to be having kids at age 13 or so. Not impossible,
I guess, but surely not likely.

This is something that I have written about at length before...when
constructing trees, you should always assign a birth and death and
marriage date to each individual, even if it is a very wide range of
possible dates. The above is an example. If George Colclough was born
in 1576/1577, then when must his father have been born? Let's give a
very young end of the spectrum and say 1550. That would make his father
16-ish at his birth. Then on the other end, how old could his father
have been? Let's give a ripe old age of 76, just for illustrative
purposes. So his father must have been born between 1500 and 1550.

2. Nobody has ever documented to my satisfaction that Matthew Colclough
had a son named Bartholomew (I'd be happy to receive documentation if
anyone has such). But let's assume he did. Who would the mother of
Bartholomew be? Matthew was married three times. What were the dates
and order of his wives? Who were their kids? I have it the following
way:

A. Katherine Dalton, married before 1548. They had children John
(~1547) and Katherine (~1548).

B. Margaret Bennett, married circa 1552. They had children Adam
(~1552), George (~1554), and Matthew (~1560).

C. Maria Warner, married circa 1560. They had children Richard (~1560),
Mary (~1563), another son, name unknown to me, born about 1565.

There are a couple of points to make about this. Firstly, this last son
some have taken to be Robert Colclough who married Susannah Griffith in
Oct 1627. This really can't be the case, since their kids were born
circa 1628-1641. This guy couldn't really be having multiple children
born to him in his 70s. Sorry...I just can't believe it. I believe this
error derives from people wanting to link John Colclough (b. 18 Jul
1641) to someone who links to Matthew, one way or another.

But back to the wives of Matthew...it is worth keeping in mind that
Maria Warner was married to Otwell Johnson prior to Matthew, and that
she had children born to her probably in the 1540s, as Otwell Johnson
died in 1551. So any COLCLOUGH born to Warner must have been born after
~1550. I bring this up because some people have children born to
Matthew Colclough nearly a century later than is really possible.

3. Reginald Colclough, born circa 1605. This is a bad guess, and I
think is another example of wishful thinking. People want Reginald to
be born 1605 so that he is old enough to have kids born in the early
1640s. The problem is that Reginald was born 12 Oct 1628, so he can't
be having kids born in 1641. The children of George Colclough and
Elizabeth Keeling are known from the register, and there is no person
"Reynold" who is distinguishable from Reginald. They are the same
person, Reginald/Reynold.

The big problem with Colclough genealogy prior to 1650 is that whomever
was constructing these trees in years past simply amalgamated many
people of the same name as one person, and who jumped from one family
group to another to make prior links in error. It seems that if one was
trying to find parents for "First_Name COLCLOUGH", they would simply
assign him as the son of "Putative_Father's_Name COLCLOUGH" as long as
he had a son by that name and the dates were even remotely possible
(and in some cases not even that, as I show above) without making any
attempt to determine if the persons of the same name are indeed
identical persons, as opposed to just sharing the same name by
coincidence (i.e., cousins, e.g.). This is most evident in the
Staffordshire-to-London jump.

My line is from that of Benjamin Colclough (m. Rachel ([--?--])) of
Virginia. His parentage is unknown, though there are several early
Virginia Colcloughs around who were old enough to be his father. But
who it was is unknown. Most people think it was John, which I suppose
is as good a guess as any. But there was also a Thomas and a George at
least. Some say that George Colclough had no children, but it is known
for certain that there was a George Colclough in early Virginia who did
have children.

I guess the bottom line is that I don't know Benjamin's ancestry, but I
do know what it was not. It did not include a man having children when
he was 13, and it did not include a man having children at 75, and it
did not include any wife of Matthew Colclough having children in her
80s.

There is a DNA project going on for this family, and I hope many will
be tested so that we will have more information at our disposal in
answering the several questions regarding the genealogy of this family.

Best,

Gregg Bonner
Bethany, Oklahoma, USA

--- michael johnson wrote:

> Yes thats definately my Bartholomew! There is conflicting evidence as
> to which mother was his- this is important as one line leads to Lord
> Draycott, who were a fascinating bunch! apparently including a
> plot to bring mary Queen of Scots to the thrown!?....and charges of
> smuggling large amounts of gunpowder!? lol Which is interesting,
> because Richard Draycotte was investigated for harbouring one of the
> gang that was involved in buy fawkes gunpowder plot to blow up the
> houses of parliament!? now theres a familly secret! Puts a whole new
> perspective on Bonfire night!? lol
>
> The John is a different one though as my John was no longer at Delph
> House in 1618 ( John Colclough (1618) Marriage: 1646 Place:
> Woolstanton,Stafford,England was born to George Colclough and
> Elizabeth Keeling (1585 Newcastle Under Lyme to Thomas Keeling) in
> Trentham and his sibs were Reginald 1605, Anne 1608, Bartholomew 1612
> - 06/06/1613, Adam 1613, Jane 1615, Thomas 1620, George 1622, Richard
> 1624, Elizabeth 1626, Reynold 1628, William 1634 & Michael 1635.)
>
>
> many thanks!!
>
> Mike
>
> carole williams wrote:
> Hi Mike
>
> I'm home now. All of my early research is verified as I did it from
> the original registers in the early/mid 1980's, pre Internet era (I'm
> that old!!!). The later stuff is not as robust.
>
> Working backwards, my first COLCLOUGH is
> Olive (b 1791-1851, she was daughter of
> William C (and Nancy Lowndes 1721-1807) 1747-1796, who was son of
> Thomas (and Mary ?? who died 1749) 1720-??, but here the trail stops
> ..., despite me having loads of notes of probably related earlier
> rellies.
>
> I guess my Thomas and Mary must have married around 1740. There is a:
> Thomas C marrying Mary Tunstall in 1734 in Wolstanton;
> Thomas C marrying Mary Adderton in 1737 at Wolstanton and
> Thomas C marrying Mary Rhodes 1742 in Stoke-on-Trent (next door
> parish).
>
> My Thomas and Mary had William 1740, John 1742, William 1746, William
> 1747(mine)
>
> Looking at some of my notes, I have it that John COLCLOUGH of
> Delfhouse b1618 was a merchant, ship owner who had no children.
> Either this guy can't be yours, or the reference is wrong.
>
> RE: Bartholomew:
> I have notes that say:
> 1566 Thomas and Bartholomew had the gift of Hyghehawghe, Dilhorne.
> 1567 Bartholomew had 1 acre quitclaim in Dilhorne in the valle under
> Redwaye near Frisen Hill
> 1615 Bartholomew had a feoffment to George Mynors of Highhaugh alias
> Delphe House, Dilhorne.Does your Bartholomew's dates match these?
>
> Best wishes Carole
> > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:09:12 +0100> From:
> > To: > CC:
> > Subject: Re: [COLCLOUGH] Dear
> ,> > Hi Carole,> > I am the direct descendant
> of Margery Colclough. (Christening: 15 Aug 1647 Place:
> Woolstanton,Stafford,England) sister of John (1639) and Thomas (1642)
> and daughter of John (1618)> > John was the son of George who in turn
> was the son of Bartholomew.> > I wondered how much info you had
> verified on the family? I would love to check out a couple of facts!
> Was Bartholomew the Bartholomew of "Delph House" and was he in fact
> the son of Mathew, one of the early heads of the rather secretive
> "Drapers Society"? (Secretive because theyve ignored all my emails!
> lol)> > Also because Mathew was married 3 times with 13 children,
> there is conflicting info as to which wife was bartholomews Mum.
> (Katherine Dalton of Calais was his first wife then Maria/Mary Warner
> (from London) and Margaret Bennet
> of Calais his third.) Ive got it as Mary/maria, but id love to get a
> definitive answer.> > Also I believe Mathew's father was another
> Thomas, and there is a connection here with the Dracotte's of
> Painsley Hall, Is there?? > > Its hard to belive that I've gone so
> far back and I still live there all these years later! We used to
> still live in Boundary ( thats where Delph house was!?) and now I
> live just 2 miles from there? lol > > Amyways, any help is very much
> appreciated!> > Mike> > carole williams wrote: > Hello everyone> >
> Just checking to see if anyone else is researching the COLCLOUGH's
> from North Staffs area, eg Tunstall, Oldcott, Burslem, Wolstanton.> >
> If so, please do get it touch and as we have a small network a
> reaserchers who are related in some ways. > > Best wishes Carole> >
> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:45:25 +0000> From: > To:
> > Subject: [COLCLOUGH] Dear
> ,> > I use a good spam filter, and you
> probably do the same.> I have whitelisted you and that means that I
> will receive all the emails you send to me.> I would appreciate it if
> you would whitelist my email address: in your spam
> filter.> > If you don't have a spam filter, I can recommend
> SPAMfighter. It is a highly effective free spam filter for Outlook
> and Outlook Express. > > You can get the free SPAMfighter here:>
> http://www.spamfighter.com/Pro>; > I hope that you will whitelist me,
> so we can continue to communicate safely via email in the future.> >
> Best regards> > Pamela> > -------------------------------> To
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