CoTipperary-L ArchivesArchiver > CoTipperary > 2011-01 > 1294173800
From: Geralyn Barry <>
Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] Tippperary - Limerick Border
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:43:20 -0800
Ann, have you tried searching at http://limerick.rootsireland.ie <http://limerick.rootsireland.ie/> ? I just tried and found the following:
Church Baptism Roulds William 1845 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC) father: Mich
Church Baptism Rowls Ally 1847 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC) father: Mich
Church Baptism Roulds Edward 1846 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC) father: Mich
Church Baptism Roulds John 1848 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC) father: Mich
Church Baptism Rools Mary 1851 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC) father: Mich
Church Baptism Rools George 1859 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC) father: Mich
Church Baptism Rools Bridget 1861 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC) father: Mich
Church Marriage Roulds Luke 1849 Co. Limerick Parish: CAPPAMORE (RC)
Do you know this Luke Roulds or the Michael Rowls who was having children (including one named George) in the area over a long span?
I searched at IFHF on Rowls, and the set of "spelling variants" that includes Rowls also includes Roulds, Rolles, Rolse, Rools, Roul, Rouling. You might try other spellings besides these and check to see which variants they include. If you specify a parish, you will have to cycle through the alphabet for the first letter of the first name, since the website does not. allow you to search only on surname within a parish.
Have you tried following up by tracing them in all the other valuation records - (1) the pre-Griffith's manuscript valuation books (house, field and tenure or perambulation books) and (2) the valuation revision lists (aka cancelled books)? Both sets of valuation materials are available on microfilm from the Family History Library.
The pre-Griffith's books vary a lot in what they include, so you would have to look at them to see - I make no guarantees. Sometimes you find wonderful gems... like in the house book for the parish of Corcomohide, Barony of Connello Upper in southern Limerick [FHL 2299825], where I recently found the only mention of a John Graham other than in the marriage record of his daughter Lydia to Martin Barry that same year. John Graham is shown in the house books as living in the gate house at Rossmore House, but he was never mentioned in Griffith's Valuation or any other land records in the area. This is probably because the owner of Rossmore House was the one who paid taxes on the house - not Graham - and the "occupier" is the person who paid the tax, whether he lived there or not. The man who compiled the house book for that area simply included the names of the men living in the Gardener's House (John Cronan) and Gate House when he was listing the houses on the estate... very
rare to see people listed who are neither occupiers or immediate lessors but rather non-tax-paying tenants! However, in some pre-Griffith's books for other areas (e.g., western County Laois close to the Tipperary border), the compiler only listed the big landowners, or else what is written looks just like Griffith's Valuation (which probably means the "updated" copies, done just before the printed version of Griffith's, are the only ones that survived). In some cases, these pre-Griffith's Valuation books were done several years before Griffith's was printed, and were revised (like the later "cancelled books"), showing names crossed out that never appear in Griffith's. In some case, I know the people remained in the area - they just disappeared into other households and never again appeared in land records. But civil or church records reveal their presence...
I see that the George you mention in the townland of Cloonteen, civil parish of Doon (Co. Limerick) appears on Lot 23 under the name George Rowlet, while on Lot 30 are Alice Rowles, Michael Rowls and Margaret Dwyer (with the other 2 as immediate lessors on a house to Dwyer). A Luke Rowles (perhaps the one from the Cappamore Catholic parish marriage record?) appears in Griffith's Valuation in the townland of Irishtown, civil parish of St. John, . A Thomas Rowles appears in St. Michael's parish in the townland of Ballinacurra (Bowman) on Barrington Street (Little). Have you checked out all these people in other records? Perhaps there was an earlier connection to Limerick City... or perhaps some people from along the Tipperary-Limerick border migrated NW to Limerick City?
Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon
On 1/4/2011 9:04 AM, wrote:
> Tippperary - Limerick Border
> My 3greatgrandfather George ROWLES was in the GV for Cloonteen, parish of
> Doon, Co. Limerick (which is now in Cappamore parish) and he was also
> listed there in the TA of 1828, and I have never seen a trace of him or others
> of the name anywhere in the area. BUT, his son, also named George, who
> emigrated to the US in 1850, was referred to in his obituary thusly, "the
> deceased was born in Co. Tipperary, Ireland in 1823."
> Now I know that the parish of Doon straddles the border but I haven't found
> the Rowles name mentioned in the Tip part, so I wonder if people were even
> sure of where the boundary was. and it would be interesting to know if
> the border ever changed/moved in that area.
> I'd also appreciate any tips to places to search in Tipperary records to
> see if they actually were there at any time. They were definitely Irish and
> Catholic, in spite of the English name which was a challenge for people to
> spell and turns up in church records as Rouls, Roulds, Rowls, etc.
> Ann Lamb
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