CoTipperary-L Archives
Archiver > CoTipperary > 2011-01 > 1294244726
From: John Carey <>
Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] "other" valuation records - was Re: Tippperary -Limerick Border- Rowles
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 10:25:26 -0600
References: <efb32.49da2efe.3a54f646@aol.com>,<4D23F456.90604@proaxis.com>
In-Reply-To: <4D23F456.90604@proaxis.com>
Geralyn,
After reviewing your postings in the ARCHIVES I am in need of some guidance/education on the best way to research the "valuation records". In that we both have an interest in the same geographical area, County Tipperary, Barony of Ikerrin, Bourney Union, Cournaganeen Parish, hopefully you can point me to the best FHL films to start my research. In my initial review I have run across four terms/keywords that lead me to different film numbers for this area. They are Electorial Divisions, House Books, Tenure Books and Field Books. Which might be more productive for "details" on the families I am researching (Carey/Keary, Treacy/Tracy, McDool(e))? I will also be doing research on these names in the Roscrea (Derrymore, Rosemary) area. I look forward to the continuation of the GREAT contributions you make to this site (and to me personally).
John
>From the hills of Helotes, TX
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 20:32:22 -0800
> From:
> To:
> Subject: [COTIPPERARY] "other" valuation records - was Re: Tippperary - Limerick Border- Rowles
>
> I am replying to the list with these details re: Ann's particular search because the method works equally well for anyone wishing to use these "other" valuation records to look for their family in Ireland.
>
> I urge people who have found their family in Griffith's Valuation but have never looked at the rest of the valuation records - the pre-Griffith's records and the later revision (canceled) books - to do so!!!! And also to get copies of the corresponding valuation maps and study them. And read all you can about them. There is a lot you can learn from these records. Griffith's Valuation is just a snapshot at a given point in time - one frame in the movie. You need to watch the entire movie to know what happened...
>
> On 1/4/2011 2:16 PM, wrote:
> > (But first I'll need to hunt up the film numbers in the FHL Catalog, and would appreciate any finding tips you might be willing to share.)
>
> I have made several posts about finding and using these filmed records (pre-Griffith's and valuation revisions) on several mailing lists, including the 2 Tipperary lists, Limerick, Laois and maybe the old Leix list too... you can search the list archives. See, for example, http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/IRL-LAOIS/2009-02/1233597645 , which refers to some of the other posts. There is an entire thread there about this.
>
> Quick instructions for finding pre-Griffith's manuscript valuation books:
>
> (1) Go to http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp
> (2) Click on Film/Fiche search.
> (3) Search on 2299825 [any film number in the set will do - I happen to know this one]
> (4) Click on the resulting one entry: "Valuation books"
> (5) You will see the catalog entry [Title Details], which shows there are 355 microfilms. THIS IS *NOT* Griffith's Valuation!!!! These 355 microfilms are the *manuscript* valuation books that pre-date Griffiths Valuation. They were used in preparation for the printed version of the valuation that we know as Griffith's Valuation. Many names appear in these books that do *not* appear in Griffith's Valuation! This is what happened just *before* Griffith's Valuation. Contents and usefulness vary by what the local valuators included for that location, and which books survived and were filmed.
> (6) Click on "View Film Note" in upper RH corner of screen.
> (7) Now the fun begins... where do you find Cloonteen townland? There are 450 individual "Film notes" associated with this set of 355 films, with 100 notes per page, spread over 5 pages - click "Next film notes" at the bottom of the page to get to the next 100 when you are ready. Ann, you need to look for records pertaining to the administrative divisions in which Cloonteen was located: Cloonteen townland appears in Griffith's Valuation in the civil parish of Doon, Barony of Coonagh, Poor Law Union of Limerick (although in 1857, the PLU was Tipperary, according to the Gen. Alphabetical List... this is important for later and other records but not here). You will not usually find the townlands listed in the FHL catalog entries.
> (8) Look on each page for the name of the county (Limerick in your case, Ann), then barony (in this case, Coonagh). You might be able to use a search feature on your browser to do this search, but it might not turn up peculiar spellings that your eye will notice if you scan through the entries. For example, Connello Upper appears as Connell in one place (the final -o missing).
>
> I did this (looked at all 5 pages of entries) and found these results for Ann's case -
>
> Page 1 -
>
> Tenure books, v. 342 - v. 349, County Limerick, Barony of Connello Upper; v. 350 - v. 353, County Limerick, Barony of Coonagh; v. 354 - v. 358, County Limerick, Barony of Cashlea FHL BRITISH Film 2299187
>
> House books, v. 1226 - v. 1236, County Limerick, Barony of Connello Upper; v. 1237 - v. 1242, County Limerick, Barony of Coonagh; v. 1243 - v. 1249, County Limerick, Barony of Costlea; v. 1250 - v. 1251, County Limerick, Barony of Coshma FHL BRITISH Film 2299825
>
>
> Page 2 -
>
> House books, v. 3026 - v. 3034, County Limerick, City of Limerick; v. 3035 - v. 3042, County Limerick, Baronies of North Liberties, Owneybeg, Coonagh, Kenry, Pubblebrien and Connello Lower FHL BRITISH Film 2355821
>
> This last set of House Books might be only for towns and larger villages in those baronies... it's sometime hard to tell, but I have looked at a lot of these and "City of Limerick" is a clue that makes me think that this film might only be for towns. I would start with the other set of House Books first [Film 2299825, which I know is not one of these "city" films because I have looked at records on it for Connello Upper barony]. Ann, you should also get the Tenure Books [FHL 2299187], which can show details of leases going back in to the mid-1700s... or not! No promises....
>
> I could find no Field Books associated with any part of the barony of Coonagh, but there are some for the part of the civil parish of Doon that was in the barony of Owneybeg (Doon was split between these two baronies in Limerick). However, the records for Coonagh barony should *not* be there. Perhaps they did not survive, were not found or at least were not found in time to be filmed with this collection.
>
> You can check further by going back to http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp and selecting "Keyword Search". Try searching on Coonagh Limerick and Doon Limerick and whatever else you might think of. In this way, you can also find Valuation Revision Lists for the area. Try it...
>
> However... to find the Valuation Revision lists for Cloonteen, Doon, you need to know the electoral division, which you can learn by going to the the 1901 and 1911 census website http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie <http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/>; and searching on 1901, the townland of Cloonteen, County Limerick (no other information necessary). That shows the DED is Bilboa. If you now do a "Keyword Search" on Bilboa Limerick, you will get 3 hits, the last of which says "Valuation lists for Limerick County, Tipperary Rural District, 1856 - 1941". (These are the valuation revision lists - *not* Griffith's Valuation. You can tell by the dates...) Click on this entry, then on "View Film Notes" and you will see that the first film there pertains to "Electoral division: Bilboa South Doon". This should be the film you need.
>
>
> > I appreciate the information on what you can find in those house books, etc. It is good to have that background. I wonder if you could help with a problem. I simply cannot find that Lot #30 on the map of Cloonteen, where Michael and Alice lived and where Brian O'Brien was at Lot 25, right across the boreen from George Rowles. (B O'B was the father of Luke's wife Margaret). O'Brien and Rowles both had good sized pieces of land. Perhaps #30 is just too small to see.
>
> No, you should be able to see Lot 30 if you have the right map. What map are you looking at? A Valuation map of the area? Do you know the date of the map? Perhaps you have a later revised map that corresponds to revised lot numbers (after Griffith's Valuation). Judging by the maps at Irish Origins, there was a revision of lots in Cloonteen shortly after Griffith's was done [printing date for Griffith's was 1 Feb 1851 for Cloonteen]. This revision shows many lots in Cloonteen were consolidated into larger lots, and some of the numbers were eliminated.
>
> Cloonteen townland, civil parish Doon, County Limerick, seems to be divided between two different OS maps. It is near the top right corner of Sheet 15 (Co. Limerick). Do you have Sheet 15?
>
> If you have access to Irish Origins (subscription website), Sheet 15 is the map that is linked to both of the Griffith's Valuation entries for Rowlet/Rowles in Cloonteen townland. Irish Origins usually has several versions of corresponding OS maps showing the numbered lots from valuation records. Some maps show lot numbers for one area on but not for others on a given map. These lot numbers correspond either to the lot numbers in Griffith's or to the lot numbers in the later revisions - you would need to determine which by comparing the maps to the valuation records themselves.
>
> Only Map Versions 2 and 3 (at Irish Origins) of Sheet 15 show lot numbers in Cloonteen townland. Version 3 is obviously an updated map, since you can see lot numbers crossed out and replaced with other lots numbers. These changes correspond to valuation revisions that should appear in the canceled books. The person who updated this map extended the boundaries of Cloonteen so that the entire townland appears on this map. However, Lot 30 appears well within the bounds of Sheet 15 and is in the SE corner of Cloonteen townland. Version 3 of Sheet 15 shows Lot 30 crossed out and seemingly joined to the neighboring lot to the north and west (Lot 26B). This happened at some point after Griffith's Valuation. So Ann, if you have a map that shows Lot 26B, the little rectangular part of that lot that is most toward the SE was formerly Lot 30. Version 2 of the map is obviously an even later revision, as lot 30 does not appear at all, having already been previously eliminated and the
> parcel included in lot 26B by then.
>
> The trend in Ireland at that point was for lots to be consolidated into larger parcels. You have to remember that lot numbers were not fixed, but rather the numbering varied within a townland, as smaller lots were combined into already existing lots or renumbered for other reasons. You can follow all this in valuation revision lists ("canceled books"), which go forward in time from Griffith's Valuation. Ann, by comparing the revision lists with the valuation map you have, you can date your map approximately.
>
> You mention Brian O'Brien on Lot 25. Lot 25 C (1+ acre) was adjacent to and SE of Lot 30, while lot 25B (7+ acres with house & outbuilding) was adjacent to and NE of Lot 30. Lot 25A (13+ acres) was north of 25B. In other words, "Lot 25" consisted of 3 separate parcels, not one continuous piece of land. These numbers did not change between the time of Griffith's and the making of map Version 3 (the on that shows Lot 30 being crossed off and incorporated into Lot 26B).
>
> You can also see this area on the OSI website (free) and compare the outlines of the lots - here is a link to a map centered on Cloonteen: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,581246,653211,6 [select Historic 6" to compare to old OS and valuation maps]. No lot numbers appears on these OS maps, but the lot boundaries do appear, with townland boundaries in red. You can also see that the maps were pieced together to make one continuous online map, with most of Cloonteen on the left hand sheet (Sheet 15) and the extreme SE corner of Cloonteen on the neighboring sheet to the east (Sheet 16). Sometimes this is where you will find the lot of interest to you - on some tiny corner of the next map, where the townland name is not even written. But not in this case: Lot 30 *is* definitely on Sheet 15. If you enlarge this map as much as you can, you can see actual houses depicted on the Historic 6" map (and if you try the other kinds of maps, you will see interesting things also). It
> can sometimes take several seconds to load a map, even with a fast internet connection.
>
> Regards,
> Geralyn Wood Barry in Oregon
>
>
> Please remember to "snip" short the message to which you are replying and check the subject line. If you are on Digest mode, a reply to an individual message will repeat the entire digest unless you "snip" it, and the subject will be the Digest ID unless you change it, please.
>
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