DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-10 > 1224263304

From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: [DNA-R1B1C7] New SNPs refine position of M222 in the Y chromosometree
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:08:24 -0700

Recent discoveries have refined the position of the M222 SNP within the Y
chromosome tree. If we were still relying on the old alternating
letter/number system, this branch would now be called R1b1b2a1b5b. As new
SNPs are discovered (and they will be), this nomenclature will only get more

Perhaps it is worth reviewing the structure of what we used to call R1b1c
and now call R1b1b2. M269 is probably a fairly old SNP, though it cannot be
as old as the 25,000 to 30,000 years that was once proposed for it. Perhaps
something in the 8,000 to 12,000 year range is more likely. Three steps
downstream we find the U106 SNP, which may contain about one third of the
total M269 population of Europe. Parallel to U106 is S116 (also called
P312), which probably incorporates a little over half of the M269 population
of Europe. Only a few percent of M269 people do not belong to one of these
two groups. U106 and P312 are both probably about 4,000 to 5,000 years old.

The P312 group includes several immediate child branches including the large
S28 group (formerly called R1b1c10) as well as some smaller groups with
Iberian associations (M153 and SRY2627, most notably). Until a few days ago,
it was believed that M222 was a parallel branch to the ones I just
mentioned. But following the recognition of a major new SNP now called L21
by FTDNA and S145 by EthnoAncestry, we can now see that L21 is the true
sibling clade of S28 and the Iberian SNPs. L21 seems to constitute about
half to two thirds of P312.

And M222 is subordinate to L21. Two other rarely seen SNPs, M37 and P66, are
also under L21. But only one or two members of each of those groups can be
identified. M222, with well over a thousand recognized members, is the sole
well-establish sub-branch of L21.

It continues to be my thinking that the MRCA for most (if not all) of the
M222 group lived within the last 1500 years, give or take a couple of

The ISOGG Y-tree (www.isogg.org.tree) does not yet include all these new
SNPs, some of which do not yet have shorthand labels and are still known by
their research submission SNP numbers (for example, until last week L21 was
known only by its submission number, rs11799226). But within a month it is
likely that the ISOGG tree will be revised to reflect the additional
complexity that has been revealed in just the last couple of weeks.

David Wilson

This thread: