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From: "Gerry" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222]Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 - Dál Fiatach
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:39:18 -0400
References: <4f8b.ea127b9.3b832dba@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <4f8b.ea127b9.3b832dba@aol.com>


John,

I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the Dál Fiatach, from two
sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry
Kelly, of this list, has just done for me.

=========================================================================
1) McEvoy et al.

John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study:
DunleavyHaugheyMCGUINNESS

5 M222 of 1214 M222 of 1924 M222 of 99
Ulster (1)Most in UlsterUlster (11)
Leinster (2)Associated with Donegal&ArmaghConnacht (10)
Munster (1)O hEochaidhLeinster (3)
Connacht (1)

I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are
generally not M222, but HG I.

McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey
and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of Haughey/Hoey/Hoy.

As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh
while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties.

The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from
Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some of
the Ó hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family, (see
Jerry Kelly's work below).

So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from Dál
Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the Dál Fiatach
being M222.

If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really
Hoey/Hoy/Ó hEochaidh. The Ó hEochaidh were from Dál Fiatach. My family is
Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the Dál Fiatach being M222.

Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my
M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family
based near Downptrick.

===========================================================================
2) Jerry Kelly's research.

I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I had
access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is a
fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals.

He found that the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe were on the main branch of
the Dál Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshléibhe had barely split from
the Ó hEochaidh before the Normans arrived.

“So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined
to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the rigdamnai
set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac
Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128

The Ó hEochaidh family, (Sloinne Ó hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the
name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just
"son of, son of, ..."

Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably
to 455 and less reliably earlier.

So the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe line were the ruling family of Dál
Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the
family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but that
is for another time.

==========================================================================

Conclusion.

With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test and
unusual matches, I pretty sure that the Dál Fiatach were M222, at least on
the main line.

We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce
itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each
generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if the
ruling line is M222, so are all.

Gerry Hoy

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Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800

Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui Neill
(Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into
Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of the
territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of Ptolemy
(I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the
Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his
argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries to
connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain
to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems
completely off-base.

Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes?

The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off shoot
of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co.
Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness,
associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest idea
what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it.




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