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From: Paul Conroy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222]Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 - Dál Fiatach
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:58:38 -0400
References: <4f8b.ea127b9.3b832dba@aol.com><81E7C42D940B4C73B2BE6C4AD8FCF39C@GerryPC><CA+2t2c7E07FB4G+n=y5BmnsqqDLKHLijb_wcdaVFTnByN2b5wA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CA+2t2c7E07FB4G+n=y5BmnsqqDLKHLijb_wcdaVFTnByN2b5wA@mail.gmail.com>


Here's a link on the Erainn peoples in Ireland, which could also tie
together a few things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn

In early Irish genealogical tracts the Érainn are regarded as an ethnic
> group, distinct from the Laigin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin>; and
> Cruthin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruthin>;. Population groups in
> Munster classed as Érainn include the Corcu Loígde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde>; in
> southwest County Cork <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Cork>;, the
> Múscraige <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige>; in Counties Cork
> andTipperary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Tipperary>;, the Corcu
> Duibne <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne>; in County Kerry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Kerry>;,
> and the Corcu Baiscinn <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscinn>; in
> west County Clare <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Clare>;. The Dál
> Riata <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata>; and Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach>;
> (or Ulaid <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid>;) in Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>; are
> also considered Érainn. The Érainn appear to have been a powerful group in
> the proto-historic period, but in early historical times were largely
> reduced to politically marginal status, with the notable exception of the
> enigmatic Osraige <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osraige>;. The most
> important of the Munster Érainn, the Corcu Loígde, retained some measure of
> prestige even after they had become marginalized by the Eóganachta<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta>; in
> the 7th or 8th century.[7]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-6>; It
> is likely that the sometimes powerful Uí Liatháin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Liath%C3%A1in>; and
> their close kin the Uí Fidgenti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Fidgenti>; originally
> belonged to the Érainn/Dáirine as well, but were later counted among the
> Eóganachta for political reasons.[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-7>;
> [9] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-8>; Another
> prominent Érainn people of early Munster are believed to have been the
> Mairtine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairtine>;, who by the early
> historical period have completely vanished from the Irish landscape,
> although they may be in part ancestral to the later Déisi Tuisceart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Tuisceart>;
> and Dál gCais <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais>.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-9>;
> The Déisi Muman <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Muman>; may also
> have had Érainn origins, but this has long been disputed.


Note that Osraige is Ossory - where my family comes from.

It seems likely the Iverni were related to the
Darini<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini>; of
> eastern Ulster <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>.[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-10>; The
> name "Darini" implies descent from an ancestor called Dáire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire>;,
> (**Dārios*)[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3>; as
> claimed by several historical peoples identified as Érainn, including the
> Dál Riata and Dál Fiatach in eastern Ulster[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-11>; as
> well the Érainn of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundrum,_County_Down>;,
> is recorded as *Dún Droma Dáirine*, and the name Dáirine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>; was
> applied to the Corcu Loígde, further suggesting a relationship between the
> Darini and the Iverni.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3>;


The genealogies trace the descent of the Érainn from two separate eponymous
> ancestors, Ailill Érann and Íar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>;.
> Legendary relatives of the latter include the Cland Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cland_Dedad>; (offspring
> of Deda mac Sin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deda_mac_Sin>;), a Munster
> people who appear in the Ulster Cycle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle>;,
> led by Cú Roí <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>;, son of Dáire
> mac Dedad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>;, and the
> legendary High King <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland>; Conaire
> Mór <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>;, grandson of Iar and
> ancestor of the Síl Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>;.
> The historical sept of the Uí Maicc Iair ("grandsons of the son of Iar") and
> the MAQI IARI of ogham inscriptions also appear to be related.[13]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-12>; The
> personal name *Iar* is simply another variant of the root present in
> Iverni and Érainn.[14]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-13>; Finally,
> the name *Íth*, given in the genealogies as the ultimate ancestor of the
> Corcu Loígde (Dáirine) and offering some confusion about their parentage and
> relation to the Iverni, in fact preserves the same Indo-European root *
> *peiH-* ("to be fat, swell"),[15]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-14>; thus
> in effect completing a basic picture of the Iverni/Érainn and their kindred
> in later historical Ireland.


Cú Roí <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>; = Conroy
Conaire = Conroy

T. F. O'Rahilly <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._F._O%27Rahilly>; identified
> the Érainn with the mythological Fir Bolg<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg>; and
> the historical Belgae <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae>; of Gaul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul>;
> and Britain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain>;. He proposed
> that they invaded from Britain and spoke a Brythonic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages>; language,
> which he named Ivernic and identified with a language referred to in a
> number of early sources as *Iarnnbélrae*, *Iarnbélrae*, and *Iarmbérla*,
> which, if treated as Old Irish <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish>;,
> means "Iron-speech". The 9th-century Irish dictionary *Sanas Cormaic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic>;
> * ("Cormac's glossary") describes *Iarnnbélrae* as a recently extinct
> language which was "dense and difficult", and records two words which
> derived from it.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3>; However,
> by the proto-historical period the Érainn were evidently Goidelic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic>-speaking,
> as evidenced by the fact that ogham <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham>; inscriptions
> in Primitive Irish <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish>; are most
> abundant in Counties Cork and Kerry.[16]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-15>;


More on Cú Roí <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>;:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cú_Roí

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Paul Conroy <> wrote:

> Gerry,
>
> I posted the following about 1 year ago on this list:
>
> Going back to the original subject, I see more info on "Conaire Mór"
> (Conroy the Great) here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r
>
> Specifically that:
> A descendant of Íar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>;,
> Conaire belonged to the legendary Clanna Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad>;,
> the legendary royal family of the Érainn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>;.
> His descendants in Ireland and Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland>; were
> known as the Síl Conairi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>;.
> The last king in the direct male line from Conaire Mór was Alexander III
> of Scotland <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland>;.
>
> The Clanna Dedad has an interesting geneology:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>;
> Descent of the Clanna Dedad
>
> Skipped generations are given in the notes.
>
> - Sen mac Rosin<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sen_mac_Rosin&action=edit&redlink=1>;
> [22] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-21>;
> - Dedu mac Sin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedu_mac_Sin>; a quo *Clanna
> Dedad*
> - Íar mac Dedad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>;
> - Ailill Anglonnach<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ailill_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1>;
> - Éogan [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-22>;
> - Eterscél <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etersc%C3%A9l>;
> - Conaire Mór<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>; a
> quo *Síl Conaire*
> - Mug Láma
> - Conaire Cóem<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_C%C3%B3em>;
> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-23>;
> - Eochaid (Cairpre) Riata (Rigfhota), a quo
> - *Dál Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata>;
> *
> - Erc of Dalriada<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erc_of_Dalriada>;
> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-24>;
> - Fergus Mór<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r>;
> - Domangart Réti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domangart_R%C3%A9ti>;
> - Gabrán mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabr%C3%A1n_mac_Domangairt>;,
> a quo
> - *Cenél nGabráin*
> - *House of Alpin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Alpin>;
> *
> - *House of Dunkeld<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dunkeld>;
> *
> - Comgall mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comgall_mac_Domangairt>;,
> a quo
> - *Cenél Comgaill*
> - Loarn mac Eirc<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loarn_mac_Eirc>;,
> a quo
> - *Cenél Loairn*
> - *House of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Moray>;
> *
> - *Mormaers of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaers_of_Moray>;
> *
> - Óengus Mór mac Eirc, a quo
> - *Cenél nÓengusa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cen%C3%A9l_n%C3%93engusa>;
> *
> - Cairpre Músc<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cairpre_M%C3%BAsc&action=edit&redlink=1>;,
> a quo
> - *Múscraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige>;
> *
> - Corc Duibne, a quo
> - *Corcu Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne>;
> *
> - Cairpre Baschaín, a quo
> - *Corcu Baiscind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscind>;
> *
> - Dáire mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>; /
> Dairi Sirchrechtaig / Dáire Doimthech<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_Doimthech>;
> - Cú Roí mac Dáire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD_mac_D%C3%A1ire>;
> - Lugaid mac Con Roí<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugaid_mac_Con_Ro%C3%AD>;
> - Fuirme mac Con Roí [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-25>;
> - (F)Iatach Find<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>;,
> a quo
> - *Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach>;
> *
> - *Dáirine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>;*
> - *Corcu Loígde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde>;
> * [27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-26>;
> [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-27>;
> - Conganchnes mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conganchnes_mac_Dedad>;
> - Conall Anglonnach mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conall_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1>;
> ,[29] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-28>; a
> quo
> - *Conaille Muirtheimne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaille_Muirtheimne>;
> *
> - Eochaid (Echdach/Echach) mac Sin [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-29>;
> - Deitsin/Deitsini
> - Dlúthaich/Dluthaig
> - Dáire/Dairi
> - Fir furmi [31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-30>;
> - Fiatach Finn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>;
> [32]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-31>; /
> Fiachach Fir Umai [33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-32>;
> - *Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach>;
> *
>
>
> So the Dal Fiatach are actually related to the Dal Riata, both of North
> Eastern Ireland.
>
> They are also related to tribes in the South West of Ireland:
> 1. Corcu Duibne - West Co Kerry, Dingle Penninsula and related areas -
> O'Shea, O'Falvey and O'Connell
> 2. Corcu Loígde - West Co Cork - O'Driscoll (R-M222), Coffey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffey>;
> , O'Leary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Leary>;, Hennessy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessy_(disambiguation)>;
> , Flynn <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn>;, Dinneen<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinneen>;
> . O'Hea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hea>;, Cronin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronin>;
> , Dunlea<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunlea&action=edit&redlink=1>;
> 3. Corcu Bascind - South Co Clare - O'Baskin, MacDermot,
> O'Donnell/MacDonnell (R-M222), MacMahon
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Gerry <> wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>> I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the Dál Fiatach, from
>> two
>> sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry
>> Kelly, of this list, has just done for me.
>>
>> =========================================================================
>> 1) McEvoy et al.
>>
>> John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study:
>> Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS
>>
>> 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99
>> Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster
>> (11)
>> Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10)
>> Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster
>> (3)
>> Connacht (1)
>>
>> I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are
>> generally not M222, but HG I.
>>
>> McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey
>> and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of
>> Haughey/Hoey/Hoy.
>>
>> As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh
>> while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties.
>>
>> The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from
>> Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some
>> of
>> the Ó hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family,
>> (see
>> Jerry Kelly's work below).
>>
>> So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from Dál
>> Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the Dál Fiatach
>> being M222.
>>
>> If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really
>> Hoey/Hoy/Ó hEochaidh. The Ó hEochaidh were from Dál Fiatach. My family is
>> Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the Dál Fiatach being M222.
>>
>> Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my
>> M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family
>> based near Downptrick.
>>
>>
>> ===========================================================================
>> 2) Jerry Kelly's research.
>>
>> I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I
>> had
>> access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is
>> a
>> fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals.
>>
>> He found that the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe were on the main branch of
>> the Dál Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshléibhe had barely split
>> from
>> the Ó hEochaidh before the Normans arrived.
>>
>> “So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined
>> to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the
>> rigdamnai
>> set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac
>> Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128
>>
>> The Ó hEochaidh family, (Sloinne Ó hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the
>> name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just
>> "son of, son of, ..."
>>
>> Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably
>> to 455 and less reliably earlier.
>>
>> So the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe line were the ruling family of Dál
>> Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the
>> family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but
>> that
>> is for another time.
>>
>> ==========================================================================
>>
>> Conclusion.
>>
>> With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test
>> and
>> unusual matches, I pretty sure that the Dál Fiatach were M222, at least on
>> the main line.
>>
>> We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce
>> itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each
>> generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if
>> the
>> ruling line is M222, so are all.
>>
>> Gerry Hoy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
>> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM
>> To:
>> Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800
>>
>> Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui
>> Neill
>> (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into
>> Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of
>> the
>> territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of
>> Ptolemy
>> (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the
>> Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his
>> argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries
>> to
>> connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain
>> to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems
>> completely off-base.
>>
>> Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes?
>>
>> The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off
>> shoot
>> of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co.
>> Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness,
>> associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest
>> idea
>> what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it.
>>
>>
>>
>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>
>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>



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