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From: "Emyr" <>
Subject: [Dyfed] CMN ?lHelp+ LLandillo/LLandeilo/+variations+Census implications
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 01:54:26 +0100


Hello Rhodri,

You've raised a number of interesting points. I could let it go but there's
no fun in that! :)

The main purpose of my previous response was that there are dangers in
dismissing old spellings of place-names simply as being 'anglicised' forms
and therefore by implication having no historic relevance. In some cases the
'anglicised' forms faithfully reflect 'peculiarities' of the local dialect
as in some place-names in south-east Wales where the Welsh dialect is almost
extinct over much of its former range. In other cases, the anglicised form
may reflect an archaic Welsh form of a place-name - the example you
mentioned of Pembrey/Penbre is an example of this. It is also mirrored in
Pembroke/Pen-fro in Pembrokeshire/Sir Ben-fro! What we have here are not an
English and Welsh version of one place-name but a medieval Welsh and a
modern Welsh name. The anglo-norman settlers simply adopted the local Welsh
place-name in the middle ages and once borrowed into their speech the
place-name became fossilised whereas the 'Welsh' pronounciation changed!

As far as "old wounds" are concerned, I have to confess that I am a
southerner to the core. My nieces are educated in the medium of Welsh in
Carmarthenshire and from what I see their language is instantly recognisable
as 'southern' although inevitably they will be less familiar with
'dialectical forms' than their grandparents who would of course have been
educated in English! The erosion of regional dialects is of course not
peculiar to Welsh. Apart from regional accents, what is left of English
regional dialects by today? Almost steam-rollered into oblivion! It is true
though that standard Welsh does owe a very heavy debt (and therefore
legacy/bias) to one William Morgan who translated the Bible into Welsh in
1588. William was from north Wales! So there it is, and more than 400 years
later on we can't even blame the media or the present Government for that
one!

Sorry Gareth. I'm well "off-topic". Over and out ...

Emyr

-----Original Message-----
From: dyfdyn [mailto:]
Sent: 23 May 2006 22:23
To:
Subject: RE: [Dyfed] CMN ?lHelp+ LLandillo/LLandeilo/+variations+Census
implications


I have studied place names for a few years and yes anglicised spellings can
more accurately follow the local pronunciation of place names.
You mentioned Aber-dar which locally is pronounced as in the anglicised
spelling Aberdare and not standard Welsh [Aber-dahr], I come from Burry
Port/ Pen-bre and even that locally is pronounced locally as in the
anglicised spelling Pembrey [brey=bray]: the "N" in Pen can gravitate to "M"
in the area around Carmarthen Bay.
I don't want to open up old wounds but I'm going to: I can't understand why
standard Welsh is so northern centric! Hope that the Welsh they are teaching
in the schools in the south is of the local variety.
Probably like you genealogy has increased my interest in other areas.
Rhodri


-----Original Message-----
From: Emyr [mailto:]
Sent: 22 May 2006 23:17
To:
Subject: [Dyfed] CMN ?lHelp+ LLandillo/LLandeilo/+variations+Census
implications


I too would pronounce Llandeilo as Llan [+ die + lo][English phonics] as
this is the correct rendition of the modern 'accepted' spelling. However
many Welsh place names were subject to standardisation during the 19th
century by well-meaning Welsh scholars who sought to impose some order upon
regional differences and dialects. However be very wary of dismissing 'old
spellings' simply as errors or anglicisations without real merit. Several
years ago I was admonished by a citizen of Llandeilo for pronouncing it as
Llan + die + lo - it is in fact pronounced by the Cymru Cymraeg of the area
as Llan + deal + o [English phonics] which is in fact hell of a lot closer
to the 'old spelling' of Llandilo! I lived in the area for 7 years and can
absolutely assure you that this is correct, certainly amongst older 'Cymru
Cymraeg'.
Likewise in the south-east of Wales where consonants are subject to
hardening g->c,p->b, etc - Calediad y Gwenhwyseg - mewn tafodiaith
de-ddwyrain Cymru (south-east Welsh dialect) - so called 'anglicised'
spellings can be more representative of the 'local' Welsh dialect since they
were not subject to 'standardisation'. In the case of Crickhowell/Crughywel
for example the so called 'anglicised' spelling is how the word was uttered
in the local Welsh dialect. If you venture north of Aberdare and ask a local
where Rhigos is they are likely to know it as "Rhicos". The hill in the
upper Swansea valley is pronounced locally around Ystradgynlais as
"Criparth" whilst on the map it is spelt 'correctly' as "Cribarth". What I
am saying, and I'm sure you would agree Rhodri, is that the study of
place-names requires thorough and thoughtful interpretation of historic
spellings. There are many publications available through reference libraries
which deal with this topic.

Emyr

-----Original Message-----
From: dyfdyn [mailto:]
Sent: 20 May 2006 12:37
To:
Subject: RE: [Dyfed] CMN ?lHelp+ LLandillo/LLandeilo/+variations+Census
implications


The proper standard spelling is Llandeilo [often pronounced Thlan day low]
but I use "Thlan die low".
There are numerous other spellings, Llandilo is an old spelling. A double LL
as in dillo deillo isn't correct and is probably an Anglicisation.
Llandeilo Fawr is in north Carms and is known as Llandeilo Fawr as the Llan
was one of the first dedicated to Teilo Sant. Llandeilo Tal y Bont is near
Pontardulais not that far from Llandeilo Fawr. There are others Llandeilo;
Abercywyn, Graban, 'r fan and others.
Rhodri



-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Harvey [mailto:]
Sent: 20 May 2006 11:57
To:
Subject: [Dyfed] CMN ?lHelp+ LLandillo/LLandeilo/+variations+Census
implications


Hi,
If place of birth is given as LLANDEILLO
LLANDILLO
LLANDEILLO FAWR
LLandillo Talybont
in any census 1841 -1901a

Is there a significance for any date ie did the location change spelling
boundary or any other factor change?

If it was filled in by a local ennumeator with the person still in the
location as resident would it be more accurrate than say an entry for a
person living in London telling the Enumerator born in LLand****or
LLAND***Carmarthenshire.
Is there a LLandilo at any date in Pembrokshire as in census records?


Any help to clarify the use of the name and location will be really
appreciated
Cheers,
Sue in LLantrisant


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