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Archiver > Dutch-Colonies > 2002-11 > 1038451667


From: "Howard Swain" <>
Subject: Re: [D-Col] Penelope Stout----a legend
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:47:47 -0800
References: <49.26aa70c5.2b093f34@aol.com>


Hi all,

(I've added back some from Rick's original message)

From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [D-Col] Penelope Stout----a legend

>> In a message dated 11/16/2002 7:45:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> writes:
>>
>> 12 Sep 1648":Ambrose London plaintive agt:ye wife of Tho: Aplegate defent in
>> an action of slander for saying his wife did milke her Cowe"
>>
>> "The defent saith yt shee said noe otherwise but as Penellopey Prince tould
> >her yt Ambrose his wife did milke her Cowe"
<snip>
>>
>> "Pennellope Prince being questationed adknowled her faulte in soe speaking
>> and being sorrie her words she spake gave sattisfaction on both sides."
>> source: Gravesend Town Book, vol. 1, Sept 12, 1648.

> > If Penelope was supposedly married to Richard Stout in 1642 or '44 (as I
> > have
> > seen cited without references), would she have been cited in the Gravesend
> > Town Book above by her maiden name?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rick
>
> Rick,
>
> Good question. I don't know what the custom might have been among the
> English. Among the Dutch, she might well have been known by her maiden
> name---but not, I would think, by the name of her previous husband.
>
> By 1648 she was married to Stout, I think we can agree. If, as has been said
> in some versions, she was first married to a van Princis/von Printzen or
> whatever, but was now married to Stout, I find it hard to believe that she
> would be known around town as Prince or van Princis or whatever.
>
> Of course, if she was herself a van Princis, as other versions have it, then
> yes, she might have been known as Penelope Prince, conceivably.
>
> I would have to ask, though, whether there is some chance that the Penelope
> Prince cited in these passages might have been someone else altogether? I
> have never had occasion to study Gravesend, and so am not familiar with the
> names there.

I wondered that, too. And note that this is Prince and not van Princis.
I've not been able to find a Prince family in early Gravesend, though.
Teunis Bergen in his "Kings County" in the section on
Moody (pp 207-208) has a list of early settlers -- but no Prince.
Does anyone have the list of the Gravesend patentees?
The patent itself in CDNY I: 629-632 names only 4 people.

I've seen English women shown by their maiden names on rare
occasions even in English records. See for example, TAG 77:175.
So, I suppose this Penelope could be shown with her maiden name.
But is there anything to tie this "Penelope Prince" to Richard Stout?
And were there any more mentions of Penelope in the Gravesend
Town Book? [_The Stout Family of Delaware..., by Thomas
Hale Streets, 1915, mentions this item from the Gravesend town
books on p. 14 and says this is the only mention of Penelope in
those town books.]


I've been trying to ignore the legend and track back from what we know.
It has been said here that Richard Stout came with Lady Moody,
but I have found no evidence of him in Essex Co., MA. I suspect that
he may have arrived about the same time, but from parts unknown.
I'm still not sure if Lady Moody lived in Lynn or Salem. I suspect she
had a house in Salem, but the 400 Acre farm was in Lynn.
She did become a member of the First Church of Salem
on 5 April 1640 and was later excommunicated. (The Records of the
First Church in Salem, p. 9)

Even thought I've yet to find Richard Stout in Lynn, Salem, or
Essex Co., MA, what if Penelope came from there?

There were several Prince/Prence families in early Massachusetts.
In fact there was a Richard Prince or Prence in Salem in 1638
according to Meredith Colket's Founders of Early American Families,
p. 249, citing Essex Institute [Historical Collections?] 14:249.
Looking at Savage's dictionary it doesn't appear likely that
Penelope was his dau. Could she be his sister?

If so, she would probably have been born in England. So, one
would have to trace the appropriate Prince family back to
England and look for her there. Not an easy task.

After I wrote the above, I found this site doing a Google web search:

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/NJHUNTER/2001-02/0983297476

I don't see a date on the first letter, but the second seems to be 1923(5)
so I suppose that is the time frame of the first one.

Note that he has the same idea as I wrote above that Penelope is of a
New England Prince family, although he has a different one in mind.
I like his idea that Penelope could have gotten her wounds
(assuming that part of the legend has some small basis in fact)
during the Indian attacks on Long Island in the fall of 1643.
We know that Richard Stout was there by Oct 1643.


Regards,
Howard










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