Dutch-Colonies-L Archives

Archiver > Dutch-Colonies > 2005-01 > 1105206771


From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <>
Subject: Re: Andries De Vos
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:52:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <008801c4f5a4$7db1c320$6501a8c0@Tower>


On 8 Jan 2005 at 10:07, don & carol wrote:

> I am new to this list. I am looking for help in determing
> the birth date and birth place of an Andries De Vos. I have
> his birth dates and places as follows:
>
> 1600 Beverwijk, Noord Holland, Netherlands
> 1599 Belgium
>

Carol

You'll want to check the Archives for this list for 2002,
as there was a lengthy thread on Andries and family.

http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/isearch2

Here's one example of what went on found at...

http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-
bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/D/Dutch-
Colonies+2002+36718813016+F

This is a 3 line URL, copy it all, without spaces, into
your web browser.

Here's the message: (it's really 3 messages in one)

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 07:03:15 -0500
From: "Ed/Linda Roorda" <>
To:
Message-ID:
<002601c2af32$457c6100$>
Subject: Re: [D-Col] Re: Cornelis VOS and Andriese DE VOS -
Albany
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Peter - I really appreciate your time to provide extra
data, as I only have
access to the first volume of Pearson's "Early Records of
Albany 1656-1675"
and did not know there were subsequent volumes. I keep
studying what I see
there, and don't know what I can add that isn't already
known to our
discussion - i.e. Pearson notes on pg. 25 that "Andries De
Vos...was
brother-in-law of Barent Pieterse Coeymans and father-in-
law of Cornelis
Vos." I bracketed below where I wonder if you meant to say
that Cornelis
Vos married Adries de Vos's "daughter"? Or, is Geertruyd
thus Andries'
"sister", not his daughter? Pearson in ERA-vol. I does not
give Andries'
third daughter's name, nor is it listed in Pearson's Albany
Settlers entries
for Andrires De Vos or Cornelis Vos, yet I see folks have
placed data online
referring to his daughter's name as Geertruy(d) - I don't
know the original
source. My question - as you say, that Cornelis Vos may
have married
Geertruyd De Vos just before returning to Holland, and
being "out of sight,
out of mind" Pearson just didn't feel the need to record
her name in his
notes? Apparently, Andries did not have the foresight to
leave a will for
us to now peruse :)

"One possibility is that there is only one
Cornelis Vos, once
misidentified
as son of Hendrick (the index to ERA 3
indicates a second
reference on page
325, but I can't find it there, or elsewhere),
that he was
married to Barent
Coeyman's sister Dirkje until her death in
1665, after which he
married
[Andries de Vos's sister Geertruyd] prior to
his return to the
Netherlands."

I also also see in ERA-Vol.I, pg 45, a footnote "Andries De
Vos is called
"schoonrader" (father-in-law) of Cornelis Vos. - Deeds, II,
1667." This was
below a legal settling of an account - "appeared before me
Johannes La
Montagne...Cornelis Cornelissen De Vos who declared he had
appointed...Dirck
Janssen Croon...to procure payment from the honorable
director general of
New Netherland...earned by the appointer in the service of
the Honorable
West India Company...Done in Fort Orange the 26th of July,
A.D.
1657...[signed] Cornelis Vos." --which does nothing more
than establish
said Cornelis, himself, at least, used both Cornelis
Cornelissen De Vos and
Cornelis Vos surnames.

Thanks for all your helps! Linda

Then this one from Peter which came first
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:07:47 -0500
From: "Peter R Christoph" <>
To:
Message-ID: <000c01c2ae72$1e42e340$>
Subject: Re: [D-Col] Re: Cornelis VOS and Andriese DE VOS -
Albany
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lorine,

In the document of 18/28 April 1667, in which Albany court
secretary Dirck
van Schelluyne writes that there appeared before him
"Andries De Vos,
father-in-law of Cornelis Vos," the purport is that Andries
is acting as
Cornelis's agent in the sale of a lot of land; it seems
unlikely that the
ever-reliable Schelluyne would write out a legal document
in which he
misidentifies the relationship between the seller and the
owner of the
property. But perhaps he did. Or, perhaps, there is an
error in the
translation by Pearson (Can one confuse schoonvader and
schoonbroeder? I
suppose).

On the other side of the argument, I find in Janny Venema's
"Church Deacons'
Accounts" that the deacons on March 15, 1665, "received
from Andries de Vos
for the large and the small palls for the burial of Vos's
wife and child 15
[guilders]." In v. 1 of Pearson's "Early Records of
Albany," p 68, "The
guardians over the estate left by Dirckjen Pieterse,
deceased, wife of
Cornelis Vos; propose at once to sell at public sale, some
household stuff,"
the document written 6 Feb. 1665. Then on page 71, the
administrators and
guardians of the estate of "Dirkje Pieterse, deceased, late
wife of Cornelis
Vos," state on 12/22 March 1665 that the goods have been
sold by the vendue
master and they have been reimbursed by him," the
administrators being none
other than Andryes De vos and Barent Pieterse. So here we
definitely have
Cornelis Vos married to Dirckje Pieterse (Coeymans) until
her death, which
occurred sometime prior to Feb. 6, 1665. We have what
appears at first
glance to be a contradiction here. What other clues can we
find that might
help (or add more confusion)?

In vol. 3 of the "Early Records of Albany," we find on p.
304 that in 1664,
"Cornelis Dircxsz Vos" owes 1/2 beaver or 4 guilders to
Gerrit Hendricxsz
van Reis. There is no indication how old the debt is. How
many people were
floating around Albany in 1664 named Cornelis Vos? We have
here one who is
the son of Dirck. A.J.F. van Laer writes in the "Van
Rensselaer Bowier
Manuscripts that Cornelis Cornelisz from Schoonrewoerd
"served as farm
laborer for six years, beginning Sept 4, 1640 ... He is
probably the same
person as Cornelis Vos, and Cornelis Cornelisz alias Vosje,
who appeared in
the account books from 1642 to 1657. Jan. 29, 1649,
Cornelis gent. vosssgen
(Cornelis, called vossgen) leases a farm ..." So presumably
we have a
Cornelis Vos who is son of Cornelis. Is the reference to
Cornelis Hendricxsz
an error, for if not, then there are two men named Cornelis
Vos in the
colony. But then surely they would always be mentioned with
a patronymic or
nickname or something to avoid confusion, and yet the vast
majority of
references contain no such qualifier.

One possibility is that there is only one Cornelis Vos,
once misidentified
as son of Hendrick (the index to ERA 3 indicates a second
reference on page
325, but I can't find it there, or elsewhere), that he was
married to Barent
Coeyman's sister Dirkje until her death in 1665, after
which he married
Andries de Vos's sister Geertruyd prior to his return to
the Netherlands. Or
there are two men named Cornelis who are usually not
distinguished in the
records, one married to Dirckje Coeymans and the other to
Geertruyd de Vos.
To me, the first of these two scenarios seems the more
likely. The document
signed by both Andries de Vos and Barent Pietersen suggests
to me that these
were two (and Cornelis Vos) were traveling in the same
economic sphere and
social circles, so that having married first into one
family, marrying next
into the other would be a natural thing for Cornelis Vos to
do.

I hope this isn't too confusing to you, because it sure is
to me.

Peter



and this one from me which was the start

From: "Lorine McGinnis Schulze" <>
To: <>; "Ed/Linda Roorda" <>

Cc: <>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Cornelis VOS and Andriese DE VOS - Albany


>
>
> On 20 Dec 2002 at 16:22, Ed/Linda Roorda wrote:
>
> > Peter - ok, that answers that! - but what other data is
there to
> > document Cornelis Vos as Andries DeVos's son-in-law?
The
> > document in Pearson's Albany Records book was the only
> > indication I've seen that Cornelis was Andries' son-in-
law.
> > I've also been told that Andries may have married a
Coeymans -
> > but I don't know who the lovely lady might have been.
Pearson
> > notes Cornelis' wife was Dirckie Pieterse Coeymans who
died in
> > 1665, and Cornelis returned to Holland soon after her
death.
>
>
> Pearson states that Cornelis De Vos/Vos/Vosje aka Van
> Schoenderwoert, worked for the West India Company in
> Beverwyck, and was married to Dirckie Pieterse Coeymans,
sister
> of Barent Pieterse Coeymans. Pearson adds that Dirckie
died in
> 1665 and her estate was sold to pay her funeral expenses,
after
> which Cornelis returned to Holland
> Pearson also shows under COEYMANS: Dirkje d/o Pieter, and
wife
> of Cornelis Vos, deceased 1665.
>
> Under DE VOS, Pearson states that Andries De Vos, wife's
name
> unknown, had a daughter who m Barent Pieterse Coeymans;
> Cornelia who m. Christoffel Davidts and Catalyntie who
had 3
> husbands --- Arent Andriessen Bradt; Barent Janse VAn
Ditmars
> and Claas Janse Van Boekhoven. Pearson does not mention a
> daughter of Andries De Vos marrying Cornelis Vos.
>
> (This is a secondary source)
>
>
> For a primary source see Early Records of the City and
County
> of Albany and Colony of Rensselaerswyck translated by
Jonathan
> Pearson. Vol. 1 1656-1675:
>
> p. 71. 12/22 March 1665 in Albany. "We the undersigned,
> administrators and guardians of the estate of Dirkje
Pieterse,
> deceased, late wife of Cornelis Vos...."
>
> Note that Dirkje is not recorded with a surname, only her
> patronymic of Pieterse. It is in the footnote that
Pearson
> assigns the name Coeymans with a question mark and
further
> states: "Dirkje Pieterse Coeymans ? was probably sister
of
> Barent Pieterse Coyemans, alias Molenaer (Miller)"
>
> The footnote of course, is secondary, not primary --- and
is
> only Pearson's conjecture.
>
> p. 68 9 Jan. 1665 A lengthy document which I won't quote
here,
> then follows "Conditions: The guardians over the estate
left
> by Dirckjen Pieterse, deceased, wife of Cornelis Vos..."
This
> document goes on to discuss the sale of her goods at
public
> auction.
>
> Among the list of purchases and purchasers, are the names
of
> Luycas Pieterse, Barent Pieterse and Anderies De Vos --
but of
> course they are only one small group in the large group
who
> bought items. It does not mean they are related.
>
> There is no surname attached to Dirkje in this record
either.
>
> In the 4 volume set of Court Records, there are dozens of
> entries for Coeymans and for Vos/de Vos. It would be
advisable
> for you to obtain these books and check the entries to
see if
> there is any mention of a Dirkje as a d/o Pieter
Coeymans, and
> if there is any reference to a surname for Cornelis Vos'
first
> wife.
>
> In this same Volume, p 416 gives the reference to
Cornelis Vos
> being the son in law of Andries de Vos:
>
> 18/28 April 1667 Albany. "We the undersigned,
commissaries of
> Albany, etc testify and declare that on the date
underwritttne,
>
> before us came and appeared Andries de Vos, father in law
of
> Cornelis Vos..."
>
> It is in this document that Cornelis' departure for
Holland is
> mentioned: "...also the grantor acknowledges that
Cornelis Vos,
>
> before his departure for Holland...."
>
> We know therefore that Cornelis Vos married prior to 9
Jan.
> 1665 ---Dirkje Pieterse (surname unknown). If we assume
that
> "father in law" is the correct translation and meaning
for
> Andries' relationship to Cornelis, then we also know that
> Cornelis Vos married secondly between 9 Jan 1665 and
18/28
> April 1667, a daughter of Andries De Vos. I would
personally
> want more proof of this before accepting it. For
instance, I
> wonder if "father in law" really meant "step father"?
>
> Lorine
> Lorine McGinnis Schulze

-- Lorine McGinnis Schulze

* Olive Tree Genealogy (Ships Passenger Lists)
http://olivetreegenealogy.com/
* Naturalization Records
http://naturalizationrecords.com/
* Images of Ships Lists
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ote/ships/

or



This thread: