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From: J de Montalk <>
Subject: Re: Fighting Elizabethan watermen
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:56:19 +1200
References: <175.1c5a5bd3.2c23a05e@aol.com>


I think they were violent times - even Shakespeare and some of his men were
up before the courts for fighting at one stage!!

Jeanette.
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 11:25 AM
Subject: Fighting Elizabethan watermen


> Hello Listers , It seems that the watermen employed directly by the rich
in
> the 16th century could be pretty violent . Here's an excerpt from a site
which
> gives more about the whole dispute:
>
>
> Inquiry 22 June 1582, into the skirmishes which occurred at Blackfriars
> Monday 18 June between Oxford's men and Sir Thomas Knyvett's men.
Previously
> printed by Bowen (1967).
>
> PRO SP12/154[/11], ff. 20-1 (bifolium, 310mm x 208mm)
>
> xxijto Iunij 1582
>
> Gerrard Ashebye servaunte to Stodard a Butcher in St Nicholas Shambles
sayeth
> that he went by his masters comandment to the marshes at Redryffe havinge
> nothinge in his hand but a sticke & when he returned he landed att the
black
> ffryers stayres & ther he hard emongest the watermen that ther should be a
freye
> [=fight] betwene my Lord of Oxford[es men] & mr Knevit & that they should
fyght
> on thother syde [of] in¬ the marshe [.] & heringe that he tarryed there to
> see the same And thervppon he went to Cave[ll]rleyes(19) schole of ffence
in the
> blacke ffreyres & ther fyndinge the schole open he toke a staffe about ix
or
> x foote longe with a Pycke in the end & so he went to the bridge againe &
> shortly after Mr Knevet came & then the freye begonne & he seinge that
they were
> but ij of my Lords men & many men on thother syde he went in emongest them
to
> kepe the peace he sawe besydes iij with staues / besydes watermen with
ther
> hookes & staves which they occupye in ther botes
>
> Examined the xxiiijth of Iune 1582 towchinge affreye [=a fray] at the
> blackefryers Betwene [my Lord of oxfordes] mr Knevetes [men] & my Lord of
Oxfordes
> men Vppon his othe affirmeth the said examination to be [lev] trewe & the
whole
> trewth & no more or otherwyse cannot depose
>
> Roger Daobye servaunt to one Mistris brekley in St Nicholas Shambles sayth
> that he was goinge to Croydon & went to take a boote at powles wharffe &
ther a
> watterman whome he knoweth not tould him that ther should be afrey at
> Blackfryeres betwene my Lord of Oxford & mr Knevet whervppon he went to
the blacke
> freyres by water & tarryed ther aboute a quarter of an houre to see the
freye &
> had in his hand a staffe aboute iij yerdes longe with a picke shortly
after he
> hard ij or iij watermen saye | yonder cometh mr Knevet & then he went to
see
> what should be donne & so he drewe nere to kepe the peace & denyeth that
he had
> any other entent to take parte or that he was spoken to by any of my Lord
> servauntes or any other to be there / but he sayth that he knewe harsley
the
> glasier
>
> he sawe iij more with staves & some of the water men with ther hookes that
> were also ther
>
> he vppon his othe also taken the said xxiiijth of Iune towchinge the said
> affreye saithe in effect as he said before & otherwyse cannot depose
>
> William Brooke servaunt to Smyth a Butcher in St Nicholas Shambles
>
> Examined the xxiiijth of Iune vppon his othe sayth that vppon munday last
his
> master sent him a brode to buye a cuple of calves & myndinge to go to
> battersey went by ludgate strete where he did see some people runninge
into the
> blacke freyers whervppon he followed them & so went to the watersyde &
seinge no
> busines there toke a bate [=boat] & then he did se the water men that
stoode att
> the gate runne vpward whervppon he came owte of the boote & toke his
staffe
> with him being ij yerdes longe & more & came to the affreye before yt was
ended
> & seinge diuers men [p......inge] assaultinge two which after they sayd
was
> my Lord of oxford and he did helpe to rescowe them beinge then in some
daunger
> as he thought & denyeth that he was procured or spoken [vp] vnto by any to
> come thether or that he knewe the names of ether of my Lord of Oxfordes
men
>
> LM: xxijdo Iunii 1582
>
> Turboughe [Mr..g..yes] magrice¬(20) vsher to Caverley sayth that he was in
> the house of one Andrewe Berrye not knowinge nor heringe of any entent of
a
> freye but beinge ther by chaunce & seinge swordes drawne & havinge [a]
onlye
> aboute him a single sworde he went in emongest them | only to kepe the
peace & did
> nothinge ells & none otherwyse did meddle in the matter he taketh ther
were
> aboute v [.] or vj men with staves & diuerse of the water men with ther
hookes
> He knewe [Castwood] gasterill¬ & horsley but nether they nor any other
mayd him
> acquaynted with any suche thinge nor desyered him to take parte therin
>
> Thomas Wilcockes a Bocher but no mans servante (rest blank)
>
> Endorsed: 224¬ Iune 1582; Examinations touching the fray between ye Earl
of
> Oxford and mr Knyvet.
>
>
>
>
> If you would like to read more about Oxford's infamous behaviour and its
> consequences , the source of the above was:
>
> http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ahnelson/LIBELS/libel7.html#7.7
>
> Best wishes to all Listers,
> Robert Hillier
> PS It helps to read the passage aloud if you can't make sense of the
spelling
> - think phonetically <grin>
>
>
> ==============================
> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records,
go to:
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>


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