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From: "Rich&Barb Leclerc" <>
Subject: Re: [FEEFHS] FEEFHS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 7
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 04:00:56 -0500
References: <mailman.837.1195373112.6530.feefhs@rootsweb.com>


Hello, I have no answers for you. BUT I do have questions. I use to belong
to a Lithuanian site a man from Mass. [Raymond Balta] had, Since I got a
New PC and I've lost all information perhaps some one can help me find that
site again. as a very young child I use to hear my grand mother refer to
her 1 st son's wife as a ''galicianna''. To this day nether I or my cousin,
who's mom claimed to be polish have any idea where this country, area , or
section of the world is, or what that name means. I was born in 1930, and
cousin in 1934, so we were around a large group of folks from the old
country. Our fathers were brothers. I grew up Lithuanian, church,schools,
she was brought up Polish, church, schools. Any thing you can tell us on any
of the information I have shared, would be greatly appreciated by us. Thank
you for reading.
Barbara E. Leclerc [ french husbands name prounced leclair...]
richbarb@ grolen.com



galician
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 3:05 AM
Subject: FEEFHS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 7


>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FEEFHS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 6 (Carol Menges)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:38:36 -0700
> From: "Carol Menges" <>
> Subject: Re: [FEEFHS] FEEFHS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 6
> To: <>
> Message-ID: <001b01c82951$8ddf4a90$>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Dear Sheila,
>
> I'm no expert in all this, but since no one's jumped in here to answer
> your
> query, and since you're new here on the list, I didn't want you to feel
> disappointed in the lack of response and possibly think no one of this
> organization would have a clue to help you out. I think they're just
> quite
> busy already in multiple organizations and their own genealogical work.
>
> I've been doing a lot of reading and attending FEEFHS Conferences over the
> past decade that have left me with enough basic information to suggest
> that
> your mystery isn't particularly uncommon at all: children might be born
> in
> an entirely different country from their parents, no matter whether the
> new
> country was considered particularly friendly to Jews or not.
>
> My genealogical leanings are more Galician / Ukrainian / Belorussian
> oriented, but the history way back clearly has common ground with yours.
>
> Even just beginning to study the history of Jews in general throughout
> Europe helps a person see the necessity for various groups to migrate or
> actually emigrate--legally or otherwise--to whatever new location would
> allow them to survive, at least for awhile, until the heat would ratchet
> up
> once again and make it imperative to move again.
>
> My suggestion would be to begin, if you haven't already, a careful
> personal
> study of the history of your areas of interest. It's a painful thing to
> do
> because the history is rife with misery and unrelenting horror on a
> frequent
> basis, but it will also likely clear up any questions you're asking.
>
> Recently I watched a PBS video I'd had on hand for quite awhile on Jewish
> immigration to the US during the 19th century. The patterns of
> congregation
> and subsequent migration westward have a lot in common with your history.
> The richer emigrants were more mobile from place to place even within
> Europe
> before they got here, and they didn't cause the same kind of distrust for
> doing so as those who were less well off. In fact, England and France
> often
> welcomed them--I don't know much about Sweden, specifically. Sometimes
> employment would cause their removal from one place to another, even to a
> neighboring country that had previously been their sworn enemy not long
> before, such as stories I've read concerning Russians going to Finland for
> a
> time. This isn't unusual. Think of our own relations with Japan and
> Germany since WWII as cases in point. Ever since the French Revolution of
> the late 18th-century there was antagonism between the rich ruling class
> of
> privilege and those who wanted a better life and more self-determination
> than they were ever likely to be given. There were a series of uprisings
> all over Europe, often instigated by student leaders, that tried to effect
> change. None of them was successful, actually, but they brought to the
> forefront of people's imaginations what might be possible if only things
> were different. All this kept leaders edgy because the students often
> were
> still fomenting revolutionary actions from new safe havens, while ordinary
> citizens outside of that conflict were either ignorant of the events or
> were
> alarmed for their own safety because of the resultant fallout.
>
> Jews, basically, weren't well liked anywhere, so it hardly mattered much
> of
> the time whether they traveled east or west. "The Holocaust" we're
> familiar
> with is only one of *many* over the span of human history, the
> 20th-century
> central European version. But, yes, Jews were sometimes lured eastward
> with
> various promises of a better life because those who made the promises
> needed
> their agrarian or financial expertise for a time, or they wanted that
> expertise as well as a human shield with land to protect who would be the
> first line of defense for the leaders' southern borders, or some other
> useful, self-serving reason. Those promises were about as iron tight as
> the
> person in charge: when he or she was out, the promises often went out
> with
> him or her, too. If the new homeland became intolerable--and the family
> had
> the resources to do so--they'd emigrate again. There are newer books
> dealing with the subject, but the one I own that entirely blew me away is
> called *The Unwanted* by Michael R. Marrus. It's still considered a
> classic
> on the subject.
>
> It wasn't until after World War I that refugees flooded Europe in ways
> never
> known before. They went every known direction over the interwar years,
> trying in desperation to find some place that would allow them to be safe,
> back and forth, as borders became closed to them. They were not allowed
> to
> emigrate, typically, without papers to allow them to cross from place to
> place (passports), and passports were hard to come by for most of them.
> Eventually they had no options remaining. The attention of the most of
> the
> leaders of the world was brought to Paris to begin that convoluted process
> of dealing with the situation, very badly. Politics intervened more often
> than a caring for humanity. A fairly new book on that with all the gory
> details is *1918*, I believe it was called. I don't have a personal copy
> but I believe you could find it on interlibrary loan, at the very least.
> Sweden was involved in this too, so I believe there might be something of
> value to you in that book.
>
> Did Karl and Hilma still have relatives in Sweden? That would be a good
> reason to keeping visiting, if they could afford the travel.
>
> I read the stories in genealogical journals or historical analyses of
> families or individuals from the late 1800s or the early 1900s who thought
> they were going to be better off in Russia or eastern Ukraine than they
> were
> anywhere in central Europe. I can't help wishing they hadn't left then
> for
> points west, considering my hindsight view of their later experiences.
> But
> they had community and family closer at hand, languages and cultures in
> common, possibilities for advancement--maybe--where they were, instead of
> the super-hyped and quite fraudulent advertising offered by the American
> agents sent to bring ever increasing numbers of workers to the coal mines
> and factories of the eastern United States, or later to the farmland and
> deserts of the mid- and western states. I can appreciate better now that
> their options weren't as easy to define as I had previously thought. Even
> a
> novel such as *My Antonia*, by Willa Cather, points out how desperate life
> often was for those emigrants who came out west. Many left the Old
> Country
> because they had no compelling reason to stay. But coming here was not an
> easy thing either, especially for any traumatized adults who had likely
> used
> up at least most of their emotional resources long ago.
>
> All of this may not help you very much, overall, but I do believe the
> self-study is warranted. There are well researched works out lately that
> leave no illusions about what our ancestors faced, what they had to
> overcome. I realize now that it was their children who actually had the
> chance to succeed, the ones who still had hope in their future. Bless
> those
> parents who brought them here, our grandparents or great-grandparents, the
> ones who didn't want to talk to us about why they left.
>
> Mine came with nearly nothing. Yours apparently had a better financial
> time
> of it, at least until your great-grandfather left the family. My
> grandparents weren't Jewish but they had their own horrors because they
> were
> amongst the lowest of the low on the pecking order once they got here
> anyway: eastern European Galicians.
>
> There is a wealth of experts in this as well as other organizations within
> FEEFHS' umbrella group. I suggest that you come to as many of their
> conferences as you can and pick their brains. Also, that you attend
> the International Conferences on Jewish Genealogy when you can make those,
> too. I did my first one this past July and found a new source for help in
> learning about paternal lines of long ago. Unfortunately, this mailing
> list
> is very quiet most of the time.
>
> --Carol Menges
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:05 AM
> Subject: FEEFHS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 6
>
>
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. New To List...Gen. Query...Gettner... ()
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:06:54 EST
>> From:
>> Subject: [FEEFHS] New To List...Gen. Query...Gettner...
>> To:
>> Message-ID: <>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Dear Listers,
>>
>> I am very glad to have found this list! I have what I think is an
>> interesting genealogical puzzle that I have been working on for years.
>> Perhaps folks
>> on this list might have some input that would assist in putting the
>> puzzle
>> pieces together.
>>
>> Here is what I have thus far on my great grandparents:
>> * Karl Hugo Gettner and Agda Charlotta Wengelin/Wivert (who was
>> born
>> in Uppsala, Sweden ? not far from Stockholm) had a daughter, Anna Sonja
>> Elisabet Gettner, March 14, 1897 in Moscow, Russia.
>> * Karl and Agda were married May 7, 1898 in St. Petersburg,
>> Russia.
>> * Karl and Agda had a son, Carl Rynow Gettner (my grandfather),
>> March
>> 03, 1899 in Stockholm, Sweden.
>> * Karl, Agda, Sonja (the name she went by), and Carl came to the
>> US
>> on board the Ivernia in June 1901. The arrival port was Boston, MA.
>> However, they ended up in NY City where they lived. The ship record
>> states that
>> their last residence was Christiania. In fact, we have a photo of my
>> grandfather as a baby that was taken there.
>> * My grandfather, Carl Rynow Gettner, always said that the family
>> was
>> rich until his father, Karl Hugo Gettner, ran off with the nanny and
>> moved
>> out west. Also, Gettner is a Jewish surname and, apparently, my great
>> grandfather was a Russian Jew. Since my grandfather, Carl Rynow Gettner,
>> did not
>> practice the Jewish faith I assume either he or his father, Karl Hugo
>> Gettner,
>> assimilated as did many, many Jewish families to avoid persecution. The
>> Russian Pogroms are an example.
>> * According to a WWI Draft Registration Card dated Sept. 11, 1918,
>> my
>> great grandfather, Karl Hugo Gettner, was born April 29, 1874 and was
>> living
>> at ?54 High E., Detroit, Wayne County, MI.? His occupation is listed as
>> ?
>> surveying, instrument making.? His nearest relative was Hilma C.
>> Gettner.
>> His eyes were listed as gray and his hair was listed as gray.
>> * In the 1920 census Karl and his wife, Hilma, were living with
>> Karl?
>> s brother, Albert Gettner ?at 111 Seamore, Detroit, Wayne County, MI.?
>> At
>> that time Albert was 52 years old. According to the census record he was
>> born in Russia and his parents were born in Germany. Albert?s wife,
>> Louise, was
>> 53 at this time. The census record states that she was born in NY and
>> her
>> parents were born in Germany. At this time Karl (Carl on the census
>> record)
>> was 45 years old and was born in Russia. Karl?s wife, Hilma, was 44
>> years old
>> and was born in Sweden.
>> * Apparently Karl and Hilma sailed across the Atlantic several
>> times
>> to and from Gothenburg (G?teborg), Sweden and NY City. On one of the
>> ships
>> records in 1955 Hilma is listed as Hilma Carolina Gettner.
>> * About Gothenburg, Sweden: ?The harbour developed into Sweden's
>> main
>> harbour for trade towards the west, and with the _Swedish emigration to
>> North America_
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_emigration_to_North_America)
>> increasing, Gothenburg became Sweden's main point of departure. The
>> impact
>> of Gothenburg as a main port of embarkation for Swedish emigrants is
>> reflected by _Gothenburg, Nebraska_
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothenburg,_Nebraska) , a small Swedish
>> settlement in the United States.?
>> * My grandfather, Carl Rynow Gettner, often wrote to a Berger and
>> Beda
>> Hammaren. They lived in NY City and Berger was an architect. Berger
>> was
>> born in Sweden. Berger and Beda also lived in Stockholm, Sweden.
>> I am very interested in why the brother's, Karl and Albert Gettner,
>> would
>> have been born in Russia while their parents were born in Germany.
>>
>> Was there some sort of work related issue going on in the late 1800's
>> that
>> would have prompted a German couple to move to Russia.
>>
>> If they were Jewish, why would they have moved to Russia where Jews were
>> not
>> well liked?
>>
>> How would the Russian, Karl Hugo Gettner, have met a Swedish girl from
>> north
>> of Stockholm?
>>
>> Was there a typical sort of business that a young Russian Jewish man
>> might
>> have been involved with that would have caused his travel to and from
>> Sweden?
>>
>> Would there have been some reason why Karl and Agda would have had a
>> child
>> in Moscow in 1897, married in St. Petersburg in 1898, then left the
>> country
>> for Sweden where they had another child in Stockholm? Then for them to
>> emigrate to the US two years later?
>>
>> Why would Karl and his second wife, Hilma, have traveled back to Sweden
>> several times?
>>
>> Any input is welcome, especially from anyone with Gettner relatives.
>>
>> Thank you very much for your assistance!
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>>
>> Sheila Andersen
>
>
>
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> End of FEEFHS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 7
> ************************************
>


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