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From: "Marta Ramon" <>
Subject: RE: "The Fenians in Australia"
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:27:12 +0200
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010907172508.02430b00@POP.USIT.NET>


Hi everyone,

The agreement between O'Mahony and Doheny, on the one hand, and Stephens on the other, to "establish an organisation", is a more complicated episode than it appears. For one, the generally accepted story that Stephens' purpose during his tour was to "test the revolutionary waters", has already been questioned. Comerford in his "Fenians in Context" (1985) states that Stephens' intention during that tour was actually to write a book on the Crimean war, which had ended early in 1856. Some manuscript evidence in Trinity College Dublin seems to confirm this.

On the other hand, the whole thing may be said to have started with Joseph Denieffe. In 1855 he came back to Ireland from New York on personal business, but before leaving he "reported for duty" at Doheny's office, and learned that the Emmet Monument Association had no contacts whatsoever in Ireland. More or less, he was told to do what he could. The EMA had not thought of sending anyone, or contacting anybody in Ireland, until Denieffe appeared.

Nothing came of this September expedition (the EMA collapsed some time between 1856-58), but Denieffe managed to establish a small organisation in Dublin and Kilkenny. Stephens actually took over this organisation in 1858, when the Americans made their second attempt to send an expedition, and this time contacted him. Stephens offered to organise "10,000 men in 3 months", which supposedly implies that the Americans were contemplating an invasion at the end of those three months. My personal view is that things happened very gradually. There was no purpose a priori to "found a great movement".

I am doing some research on this question. When I have put everything together I may post another message with the whole story. Ryan is not too reliable on this particular episode, because he repeated a lot of what Stephens and other Fenian leaders wrote for self-glorifying purposes, trying to build the myth of the "eternal determination" to found a great secret society. Devoy wasn't present when the IRB-FB were founded; Denieffe is a lot more reliable.

Marta.






----- Original Message -----
From: RUDDYsTN <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 12:43 AM
Subject: "The Fenians in Australia"


> Jo
> In the first paragraph quoted, Amos followed generally the accepted story.
> I think he was winging it in one area. I will give the generally accepted
> version.
> Mike
>
> Amos:
> >"The Fenian movement was founded in Dublin, on St Patrick's Day 1858, by a
> >group of exiled rebels who had taken part in the short-lived and
> >unsucessful nationalist rising in Ireland in 1848." (page 21) Two of them
> >were James Stephens and John O'Mahony
>
> The Version of William D'Arcy, Desmond Ryan, John Devoy and others:
> The Fenian movement was founded when Michael Doheny and John O'Mahony both
> members of the Young Ireland aborted rising in 1848 contacted another
> ex-Young Irelander in Dublin, James Stephens who had just done a walkabout
> in Ireland testing the revolutionary waters, and they asked him (Stephens)
> to join them. Stephens consented only if he was chosen the "virtual
> dictator" of the movement. The message was carried to Dublin in late autumn
> of 1857. Joseph Denieffe brought the answer back from Stevens sailing I
> believe in January of 1858. O'Mahoney and Doheny were both living in the US
> at this time and nothing I have read indicates communication with Stephens
> about "an organization" before a meeting held between John O'Mahony,
> Michael Doheny, Owen Considine and several others and the subsequent
> agreement with Stephens.
>
>

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