FINE-L ArchivesArchiver > FINE > 2011-09 > 1315364667
Subject: Re: [FINE] FINE Digest, Vol 6, Issue 20
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 23:04:27 -0400 (EDT)
In a message dated 9/6/2011 2:52:35 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Thanks to Mary Fern for the prompt reply.
Let me clear up my mis-communication. I was suggesting that the
John/Johann Fein in Rowan NC described in NC Moravian Records was the son of Peter
Fine and Catherine of Frederick MD- NOT Thomas Fine and Agnes Merchant of
The Peter Fine in Frederick MD moved there ca 1770 from NJ, based on
pension record of his son Peter Fine, Jr.b. 1750 NJ. There are good Lutheran
church records in Frederick MD starting ca. 1778 and the area was heavily
German immigrants who flowed down from the Pennsylvania
Deutch region, and nearby NJ counties.
Based on the estate record of Peter Fine dated 13 Jun 1803 in Loudon VA
(just across the Potomac River from Frederick MD), John Fein is named as an
heir. Based on sequence of heirs listed, John Fine would be younger than
brother Peter Fine, b. 1750 NJ. There are several tracks in Frederick MD of
Peter and Philip Fine in 1790 and 1800 census- but no tracks of John Fine-
which would be consistent with a move out of area.
So the story of Frederick Daniel Muller that he came from York PA to a
remote part of MD without a nearby church, could fit with a brief stay in
Frederick MD where his daughter Louisa Muller meets and marries John Fine. When
Frederick Muller moves to NC, John Fine and wife moved with him, showing
up in records there in Jul 1775, and children born starting in 1775. At the
next opportunity I will look at the Frederick MD records for any tracks of
Frederick Daniel Muller for confirmation.
The Fine DNA tests show close match between descendants of Thomas Fine of
Shenandoah VA; descendants of Peter Fine of Frederick MD, and descendants
of the Philip Fine who established Finesville NJ.
Look forward to continuing interchange.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:01 AM
Subject: FINE Digest, Vol 6, Issue 20
> Today's Topics:
> 1. Re: FINE Digest, Vol 6, Issue 18 ()
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 20:23:22 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: [FINE] FINE Digest, Vol 6, Issue 18
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Dear Erin,
> It is great to hear from you again.
> I have also wondered whether my Johann Fein could be the same person as
> John Fine, son of Thomas Fine and Agnes Merchant of New Jersey and
> My Johann Fein was in Rowan County, NC, by 1775 and already married to
> Louisa Muller. They attended the Moravian Church where services were
> held in
> German. Louisa's father, Fredrich Daniel Muller and her (unnamed) mother
> also attended that church.
> The Moravian Church had German-speaking pastors who kept daily diaries
> (written in German), using a running commentary of births, marriages,
> and daily happenings. Portions of these diaries have been published in
> several volumes entitled "Records of the Moravians in North Carolina."
> I am assuming that Johann Fein was already married to Louisa Muller when
> the Mullers came to Rowan County, NC. The Moravian Diaries have an entry
> (that I cannot locate now) that says the pastor called on the family of
> newcomer Friederich Daniel Muller. The Mullers told the pastor that
> they had
> came from Yorktown, York County, PA, with a stopover in Maryland, where
> lived in a remote area and could not attend services due to distance and
> poverty (I am paraphrasing. Maybe someone on this List has an exact
> translation. I'm sorry I can't find the date).
> The first mention found in the Moravian Diaries for Johann Fein is:
> Friedberg Diary 1775: July 23. Mr. Fein, the son-in-law of Frederich
> Daniel Muller, who has a good name in our neighborhood, and often
> services, announced the birth of his little daughter and asked for
> for her. The Diary of Rev. Ludolph Bachlof. "Records of the Moravians
> in North Carolina, Vol. II, 1752-1775," Adelaide L. Fries. Raleigh
> Department of Archives and History, Reprinted 1968.
> Friedberg Diary 1775: July 30. The little daughter of our neighbors,
> Johann and Louise Fein, was baptised into the death of Jesus with the
> Anne Maria. The Diary of Rev. Ludolph Bachlof. "Records of the
> in North Carolina, Vol. II, 1752-1775," Adelaide L. Fries. Raleigh
> Department of Archives and History, Reprinted 1968.
> Another important entry for Johann Fein is:
> Salem Diary 1777: June 9. Fr. Fritz heard from a man, who has recently
> come from South Carolina, that peace has been made between the South
> Carolinians and the Underhills Cherokees. This afternoon Johann Fein
> took his
> Lease; day before yesterday Adam Hartmann took a Lease to a piece of
> Sparks's Creek. Graff to von Watteville, June 24, 1777. The sale of
> has entirely stopped, partly on account of the uncertainty as to the
> of the present currency and partly because I could not give a Deed, and
> now it would not be expedient to make Deeds at any rate; but I am
> land to known friends and neighbors, mostly on Lease. Perhaps the Lord
> will soon give us better times, and then Br. Marshall can return to us,
> take the land matters into his own hands again. "Records of the
> Moravians in
> North Carolina, Memorabilia of Salem, 1777, Vol. III, p. 1153.
> On the "List of Taxable Property in the County of Rowan, North Carolina,
> returned by the August term anno 1778," was the name of John Fine. He
> listed in Capt. Eakle's District, under "Poles given in."
> Most of yesterday I reviewed old copies of "Fine Lines," and could see
> that these two men cannot be the same person. Although my Johann Fein
> married to Louisa Muller appears to be about the same age as John Fine,
> of Thomas and Agnes Merchant Fine from New Jersey, additional records
> about this latter John Fine show that he had a different wife and lived
> in a
> different State. (I even considered bigamy in the early days, or that
> Fein had run off and left Louisa and gone to Tennessee, but I think the
> records clearly show two different men with two different personalities.
> Also, Johann Fein's last two children were born in 1778 and 1780 in
> County, NC, while John Fine's first two children were born in 1778 and
> 1780 in
> Shenandoah County, VA.
>>From "Fine Lines," Volume II, No. 1, March 1992, Betty Fine Padilla, p.
> John Fine was a farmer, his religious affiliation was Baptist, and he
> served in the Revolutionary War. He had land grants # 2519 on the N.
> French Broad River, and # 2080 on Clear Creek on the N. Side of French
> Although I don't accept at face value the Trees posted on Ancestry.com,
> yesterday I found one posted by Larry in November 2005 that appears to be
> well-researched. His email address was
> (mailto:) . His post includes the following:
> Religion: ABT OCT 1791 Accepted into Cherokee Crk. Baptist Church
> Washington Co. TN
> Reference Number: 424
> (Listed under children of Thomas Fine and Agnes Merchant, Child # 5):
> 5. John2 Fine (Thomas1) (Source: (1) The book Tennessee Settlers and
> Descendents by Tennessee Genealogical Society, c. 1994.., (2) Julia Fine
> Hamlin bible transcription of Steve Ferguson., (3) Mrs. R. E. Bartley
> (Corrine) 1406 Marion Way Santa Ana, CA 97206) was born 1755 in
> Va., and
> died March 05, 1829 in Washington Co. TN (Source: Julia Fine Hamlin
> transcription of Steve Ferguson). He married Grace Welch (Source: (1) The
> book Tennessee Settlers and their Descendents by Tennessee Genealogical
> Society, c. 1994.., (2) Mrs. R. E. Bartley (Corrine) 1406 Marion Way
> Santa Ana,
> CA 97206) Abt. 1776.
> Notes for John Fine:
> Captain John fine located at what is now known as the Rusatherford farm
> Sinking Creek, Where he died abt 1829.
> Captain John Fine and his wife Grace came to East Tennessee from New
> Market, Virginia prior to 1783. They settled along cherokee Creek (at
> Washington County, North Carolina). And joined Cherokee Baptist Church in
> October 1791, in 1793, John received a land grant for 350 acres from the
> state of North Carolina. John fine served in the American Revolution.
> Had land grants #2519 N.Side French Broad River, & #2080 Clear Creek N.
> Side French Broad River.
> More About John Fine:
> Fact 2: 1783, Greene Co., TN Tax List, 4th District, 100 acres, 1
> cows, 60 total
> Information in Fine Lines, and also Online, list the wife of John Fine as
> Grace Welch Lockhart, and their first child, Elijah Fine, was born in
> Virginia. Someone in that family must have kept Bible records because
> vital records are listed as:
> John Fine was 1755 in Norfolk, VA., and died March 05, 1829 in Washington
> Co. TN
> (no information about Grace Welch Lockhart)
> Elijah Fine, b. 26 January 1778 in Shenandoah County, VA
> Mary Fine, b. 15 January 1780
> Rebecca Fine, b. 15 October 1781
> Lavinaia Fine, b. 13 August 1783
> Abraham Fine, b. 10 October 1785
> It is very interesting that three descendents of Johann Fein and Louisa
> Muller match the Y-chromosome DNA of sons of Thomas Fine and Agnes
> Johann Fein must was fluent in German, while the sons of Thomas Fine and
> Agnes Merchant married English speaking women.
> It seems that Johann Fein may have been at most bi-lingual, but perhaps
> spoke only German. Perhaps he or his family immigrated more recently
> the family of Thomas Fine, or he lived in a more closed German
> Perhaps one day we'll find some German birth records for a Peter or
> Thomas or
> Johann Fein that can link the two families together. The DNA test only
> tells that the two families shared a common ancestor. It could be
> generations earlier than 1725.
> Thanks again for writing.
> Mary Fern
> In a message dated 9/2/2011 8:19:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> Mary Fern's comments reminded me that we had speculated that the
> Fein in Rowan NC was the son of the Peter Fine who came from NJ to
> MD ca 1770. This son John has few tracks in MD but is named as an heir
> estate record of his father Peter Fine dated 13 June 1803 in Loudon
> Listing order of heirs would suggest that Johann Fein is younger than
> Fine, b. 1750 Nj.
> Now that DNA has shown close relation of NJ Fines at Finesville, Thomas
> Fine/Vinet Fine clan of VA, and Peter Fine of MD, story looks more
> erin moore
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:01 AM
> Subject: FINE Digest, Vol 6, Issue 18
>> Today's Topics:
>> 1. Re: Johann Fein or John E Fine ()
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:18:49 -0000
>> From: "" <>
>> Subject: Re: [FINE] Johann Fein or John E Fine
>> To: <>
>> Message-ID: <>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;
>> This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list.
>> Author: MaryFernS
>> Classification: queries
>> Message Board URL:
>> Message Board Post:
>> There is some confusion about the identity of the Johann Fein of Rowan
>> (now Davidson) County, NC. That Johann Fein was dead before September
>> 1780 and the Battle of Guilford Courthouse did not occur until 15
>> 1781. (A documentary source is badly needed for the alleged Johann E.
>> Fein, born 1749, who allegedly died in that battle, along with the
>> date of birth for him that appears on internet Trees).
>> The wife of Johann Fein of Rowan County was Louisa Muller, daughter of
>> Friedrich Daniel Muller. The Mullers were members of the Moravian
>> although it is not known if Johann Fein was a memnber. The Moravians
>> pacifists and German-speaking. Their pastors kept diaries of births,
>> deaths, and everyday events. Four births were recorded for Johann Fein
>> and wife Louisa Muller in the Moravian Diaries. Portions of these
>> have been translated into English and published in several volumes
>> entitled "Records of the Moravians in North Carolina." Sometimes these
>> books are available in local public libraries. Not everything in the
>> Diaries has been published. Only a representative sample was selected,
>> and only two of the Fein births were chosen for publication. However,
>> records of the other two births can be obtained by writing to the North
>> Carolina State Archives.
>> 23 July 1775. "Mr. Fein, the son-in-law of Frederich Daniel Muller, who
>> has a good name in our neighborhood and often attends our services,
>> announced the birth of his little daughter and asks for baptism for
>> She was baptised on 30 July and named Anna Maria Fein." (She has not
>> Peter Fein was born 14 December 1776 (Not published but in original
>> Peter married Catherina Long and went to Fountain County, IN).
>> Johannes Fein was born 2 November 1778. (Not published but in original
>> Diary. Johannes married Mary Hughes and Elizabeth Hartley and stayed in
>> Davidson County, NC).
>> Christian Fein was born 3 September 1780. "On September 8, 1780
>> Daniel Muller's wife announced the birth of a little son to her
>> Fein's wife, and asked for its baptism, saying she hoped it would not
>> refused because the father was not at home and could not ask himself
>> it. I had already heard that Fein was dead and buried, so made no
>> objection. This child was baptized as Christian Fein." (Christian
>> married Mrs. Mary Murr Bowen, widow of John Bowen, and went to Clark
>> County, IN, and Jefferson County, IL).
>> All three sons eventually changed the spelling of their surname to
>> Y-chromosome DNA testing shows that two descendents of Peter Fine and
>> Catherine Long are a match to the early Fein family of New Jersey,
>> by Thomas Fine, born ca. 1725 of New Jersey, and Vinett Fine, born 1750
>> New Jersey. At this time the exact relationship between Peter Fine
>> the New Jersey Fines is unknown.
>> A Y-chromosome test of a participant from Davidson County, NC, thought
>> descend from John Fine and Mary Hughes (circumstantial but without a
>> trail), did not match the New Jersey group.
>> A Y-chromosome test of a descendent of Solomon Fine, born ca. 1801 in
>> North Carolina, and thought to be a son of Christian Fine and Mary Murr
>> (circumstantial but without a paper trail), did not match the New
>> The Moravian Diaries show that Johann Fein of Rowan (now Davidson)
>> NC, cannot have died in the Battle of Guilford Courthouse.
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