GAINES-L Archives

From: <>
Subject: The Challenge
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:57:34 -0400

I am writng to all of you Gaines family researchers to see if we can
significantly advance our claim of the the long held tradition that we
are descended from the Games family of Brecon, Wales.

We have all descend from Thomas Gaines of Virginia. We have long held
that Thomas is a son or grandson of Sir John Games of Brecon. Some
say we descend from John Games of nearby Aberbran. In either case
this would link us to Sir David Gam of Agincourt fame. From Sir David
Gam there are lines to King Henry the first and also a line to Cradoc
Frais, knight of the round table.

The Welsh ancestors of both Sir John Games of Newton or Sir John Games
of Aberbran are well documented. The American descent of Thomas
Gaines of Virginia is well documented. What we do not have is hard
evidence to link the two lines. There is good evidence but not strong
enough to convince hardened genealogists. Calvin Sutherd, Major
Gaines and Mrs. Mary Riley have done much of our research in the 30's
through the 70's. We have relied on their work heavily. In the 90's
we have far more tools than they had at their disposal. In my own
study, I have assembled as much data as I could from the internet and
libraries, always with the thought in my mind that when the bulk of
the information gathering process dies down, I would review eveything
for accuracy. For me, the time is now and for our group I believe it
is too. Our excellent homepage hosted by Linda Lee,
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/7221/ details our descent
from David Gam and I would like to pool our efforts to make this claim
bulletproof.

In recent weeks the topic has been debated by others in the newsgroup
soc.genealogy.medieval . I only just became aware of it yesterday and
reading through the archives was surprised to see the words bogus and
fraudulent all over the place. I posted, in response, everthing I
knew about the Sir John/Thomas Gaines connection as well as some info
to clarify some of the David Gam questions they had.

Its important to remember that the many members of the group are
exceptional genealogists, skeptical by nature, and their challenges,
while they may seem harsh, are based on the hard reality that this
hobby requires verifiable documentation. They are really allies in
our search for an accurate picture of our past.

I have attached two documents here:
1. My posting from yesterday of information that we Gaines' have to
make our claim (as well as David Gam info which isnt really the focus
here)
2. Two responses to my post. (I have left out the posts of several
weeks ago as I was not involved in those discussions and there was
alot of back and forth, some of it inflamatory, before they finally
came to the conclusion that we were on shaky ground. You can read
those posts if you want to by going to www.dejanews.com and doing a
powersearch on the word - Gam, and the group -
soc.genealogy.medieval.)

One of the reponse posts gives us a partial roadmap towards
strengthening our claim. I would ask that any Gaines researchers who
are as fascinated by the Welsh connection, as I am, work together as a
unified group to come up with "evidence that would stand up in court".

Of course we need to have a plan. Is there a Project Manager among us?
A suggested start would be access to all of the reference material
quoted by Sutherd and others. I dont have the complete Sutherd works.
When he says "there are family traditions as wells as records which
indicate Thomas was a son of Sir John" what records is he speaking of?
Apparently, genealogists dont regard Virkus as accurate and look more
to Bartrum and Dwinn among others. It would be of incalculable value
to have a resident contact in Brecon to chase down wills etc. I was
in Brecon for only 3 days and didnt have the time that I wanted.
Who's got frequent flier miles here?!

I submit that we use the Gaines List, to
reach the goal of making this link worthy of our family trees and
acceptable to genealogists around the world. If we can do this we
will all be able to add thousands of ancestors, including nobility and
descent from Charlemagne to our databases. It would also give you a
reason to visit Brecon, one of the most beautiful and ancient places
anywhere.

Please forward this email to any Gaines researchers you think I may
have omitted.

Curt Gaines

====================================================

From: Curt Gaines <>
Subject: Gam/Games/Gaines
Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 4:03 PM

I'd like to add what I know to the posts of several weeks ago
concerning
these families.

Thomas Gaines connection to Sir John Games:
The connection has been refered to in family tradition for several
hundred
years and in published accounts for at least 125 years. The
descendants of
Thomas Gaines of Virginia were aware of their Welsh heritage; Kentucky
biographies from the late 1800's mention the descent of the Gaines
family
from the last Welch princes (which are traceable through David Gam).
The
most recent published reference is in Calvin E. Sutherds "Compilation
of the
Gaines Family" 1972, avaiable in the Library of Congress. He states:"
Many
articles written in books and periodicals indicate that there is a
strong
conjecture that Thomas Gaines, b 1585-90, who came to the Virginia
Colony
Ca. 1641. Some say he was a son, others a grandson, of Sir John Games
of
Newton; while others say he was a son of John Games of Aberbran. The
compendium of American Genealogy by Virkus Volume VI states that 'a
Thomas
Gaines, son of Sir John 1559 - 1606, came from Brecon Wales ante 1650,
settled in Virgina'."

Responses from the Vicarage of Llywel and Registrar of Brecon to
letters of
request for information in the 1960's on the Gaines family use the
name
Games and Gaines, apparently, interchangably. One explanation I have
heard
is that the name Games was used in Wales and Gaines was used when
traveling
in England.

My own speculations: Thomas Gaines received a land grant of 1030 acres
in
1656 so it can be said that he wasn't poor; descent from a Knight is
not
unthinkable. Sir John Games however was not the only well to do
member of
the Games family; many of the descendants of David Gam faired well for
hundreds of years. John Games of Aberbran, for instance, had
considerable
land holdings. Thomas Gaines' departure from England at the time of
Cromwell also leads me to think that, since the Games family was
traditional
loyalist, it may have been a logical move for him. During a visit to
Sir
John Games house at Newton in Brecon last year I was shown the family
crest
displayed above the fireplace. The owner said it had been
deliberately
defaced by Cromwells troops.

David Gams Children:
According to Theophilus Jones's History of Breconshire David Gam had
three
children:
1. Morgan Gam: progenitor of the Games families of Brecon, Aberbran,
Pencelli, Penpont and Newton among others. He was the greatgrandfather
to
Sir John Games of Newton. The name is still common in Brecon today.
2. Thomas
3. Gwladys who married first Roger Vaughan and secondly Sir William Ap
Thomas of Raglan Castle. This second line became the Herberts and one
son
was William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke. It is the Herbert ancestors
who
befriended Shakespeare which forms the speculation that the Fluellen
character of Henry V is styled after David Gam. Roberts' "Royal
Decent of
500 Immigrants" traces a line of nobility from John Thomas of
Pennsylvania -
down through Gwladys - to her father David Gam - to his mother Mawd
ferch
Iuean - on down to Henry I.

David Gams biography:
Gam, David d. 1415, Welsh warrior, is more properly styled Davydd ab
Llewelyn. Gam is a nickname meaning squinting, which, like other
Welsh
nicknames, became equivalent to a surname. David's father was
Llewelyn, the
son of Hywel, the son of Eineon Sais. Llewelyn possessed fair estates
in the
parishes of Garthbrengy and Llanddew, which lay within the honour
or lordship of Brecon, a dependency of the earldom of Hereford, and
after
1399 lapsed to the crown by the accession of Henry IV, who had long
enjoyed
that earldom. Peytyn was the name of Llewelyn's chief residence. David
is
described in a verse attributed to Owain Glyndwr as a short red-haired
man
with a squint. He was faithful to his lord, Henry IV, even during the
revolt
of Owain [see Glendower, Owen]. He was rewarded for his services by a
large
share in the South Welsh lands confiscated from rebels in 1401 (Wylie,
Hist.
of Henry IV, p. 245). There is a story that David plotted against the
life
of Owain when attending the Welsh parliament at Machynlleth. But it
rests on

no early authority, misdates the year of the Machynlleth parliament,
and
wrongly makes David a brother-in-law of Owain. There seems nothing to
show
that David ever wavered in his allegiance.
David was taken prisoner by Owain, probably at a time when Owain's
successes
were very few. On 14 June 1412 David's father, Llewelyn ab Hywel, and
the
seneschal and receiver of Brecon were empowered to treat with Owain,
and by
ransom or by capturing rebel prisoners to extricate David from his
rigorous
imprisonment (Federa, viii. 753).
It is said that David soon after got into trouble by killing a kinsman
in an
affray in Brecon town. In 1415 David, accompanied by three foot
archers
only, followed Henry V on his invasion of France (Nicolas, Battle of
Agincourt, p. 379). It is reported that when, on the eve of the battle
of
Agincourt, he was questioned by the king as to the number of the
enemy, he
replied that there were enough to be slain, enough to be taken
prisoners,
and enough to run away. The story, however, first appears in Sir
Walter
Raleigh's History of the World (p. 451). David was slain at the
battle of
Agincourt, which was fought on 25 Oct. 1415. The contemporary
chroniclers
who notice his death simply describe him as an esquire (Walsingham,
ii. 313;
cf. Chronicles of London, quoted in Nicolas, pp. 279-80). There is a
tradition that he was knighted for his valour when dying on the field
of
battle, and the fact that one chronicler says that two recently dubbed
knights were slain (Gesta
Henrici Quinti, p. 58, Engl. Hist. Soc.) is thought to bear out the
story.
But one writer at least mentions both the two knights and David Gam
(Nicolas, p. 280). Lewis Glyn Cothi, a Welsh poet of the next
generation,
who celebrated the praises of David's children and grandchildren,
regularly
speaks of him, however, as Syr Davydd Gam (Gwaith, pp. 1, 8). It has
been
suggested that David is the original of Shakespeare's Fluellen. This
is not
at all an improbable conjecture, as Fluellen is plainly a corruption
of
Llewelyn, and David was generally called David Llewelyn, or ab
Llewelyn. The
reference to him in Raleigh shows also that his name was familiar to
the age
of Elizabeth.

David is said to have married Gwenllian, daughter of Gwilym, son of
Hywel
Grach. He left a family. His son Morgan became the ancestor of the
Games of
Breconshire. His daughter Gwladus was by her second husband, Sir
William ab
Thomas of Raglan, the mother of William, the first Herbert Earl of
Pembroke.

Sources Besides authorities quoted in the text the biography of Gam in
Theophilus Jones's Hist. of Breconshire, i. 160-1, ii. 156-69, with
pedigrees; the pedigrees in Lewys Dwnn's Heraldic Visitation of Wales
(Welsh
MSS. Society); Gwaith Lewis Glyn Cothi; Sir Harris Nicolas's Battle of
Agincourt; Tyler's Hist. of Henry V. published 1889

Curt Gaines

=======================================================

From: G . EDWARD ALLEN <>
Subject: Re: Gam/Games/Gaines
Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 10:01 AM

Dear Curt,

At this point in time, it would appear that you have a plausible
hypothesis. But it is only a hypothesis. You need to bolster it
considerably.

Have you examined the wills, deeds, and church records of the Games
family to see if there is a Thomas of the right period who disappears
from the records?

Does Lewis Dwnn show such a Thomas? Have you examined Peter Bartrum's
treatment of this family?

These are things you really must do in order to strength or demolish
your case.

Waving Virkus and long held family traditions in front of this group
is
tantamount to waving a flag at a bull. Someone will charge :-)

Kay Allen AG

======================================================================

From: D. Spencer Hines <>
Subject: Re: Gam/Games/Gaines
Date: Saturday, September 19, 1998 11:32 PM

1. This all looks pretty shaky to me.

2. Virkus, as we have frequently discussed here, is notoriously
unreliable.
Virkus is just another subscription publication. Families who paid
top
dollar got their "Family Traditions" engraved in print --- 'For The
Ages'.
And, there are still many naive people who believe that if they can
find it
in print, "it must be true." One chap recently shouted at me:

"If it wasn't true, why would they be allowed to publish it!"

[N.B. A killer argument indeed.]

Virkus is now on CD-ROM because of charlatan genealogists and
publishers.
We should not be surprised if it soon appears on DVD.

3. What do others think?

D. Spencer Hines

This thread:

• The Challenge by <>

  • The Challenge by Cathy Stoppel <>