GEN-ANCIENT-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082075575


From: Don Stone <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:33:09 -0400
References: <00dd01c422b5$d07303c0$0500a8c0@SAINTNINO>
In-Reply-To: <00dd01c422b5$d07303c0$0500a8c0@SAINTNINO>


Carolyn Clark Campbell wrote:

> Thanks, I'll look forward to it!
>
> I have a couple of possible lines from Georgia's early kings to later
> English (and French et al.) ones (as well as, of course, Byzantine
> Emperors and Armenian kings), but will post on Gen-Medieval as soon as I
> can get it together.

I'll be interested in seeing this.

> I'd be interested in whether they're verifiable.
> Unfortunately, due to all the 40+ invasions of Georgia over the last
> 3,000+ years, written records are mostly destroyed.
[snip]
> In a
> country where a 6th century church, built around a pre-existing pagan
> altar is "new" ... one breathes antiquity. But how, now, can it all
> be documented?
>
> Perhaps it is always meant to be only legend, fantasy, romance, and
> mystery -- where even today a Rose Revolution (in part staged and
> organized by Georgia's great film and theatre producers) symbolized by a
> flag with Templar crosses, moves people to the very depth of their
> being.
>
> Carolyn
>
> Carolyn Clark Campbell
> Tbilisi, Georgia
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ~Ford~ [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:17 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Edessa, Judea, and Armenia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carolyn Clark Campbell" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 13 April, 2004 20:38
> Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Edessa, Judea, and Armenia
>
>>I'm interested in the reference (below) to the Georgian Bagratids as
>>being of Jewish origin. Does anyone have further information on this?
>>
>>Georgia has a very interesting Jewish history (it is claimed that the
>>Jews first settled here during the Babylonian exile, and the 26th
>>century of their arrival was celebrated here a few years ago), and it is
>>a country in which Jews have always been welcomed. (Ariel Sharon is of
>>Georgian-Jewish origin.) This might help explain it.
>>
>>Other information on Georgian genealogy welcomed!
>>
>>Carolyn Clark Campbell
>>Tbilisi, Georgia
>>
>
> For the time being, that assertion will have be accepted. Prof. Kelley is
> currently working on publishing a piece dealing with this issue. Since Don
> Stone is helping somewhat with that endeavor, mayhaps he can better address
> that question.
> Sincerely,
> Ford

Yes, I am working with Prof. Kelley on this. Since something is being
prepared for publication, it is appropriate not to say much about the
specifics in it right now. However, I can say now that it _could_ be very
interesting to see the results of analyzing the Y-chromosome DNA of one or
more male-line descendants of Ashot I the Great, Curopalate, d. 830. (Then
again, it might be of no particular interest.) I have looked at Toumanoff's
_Les Dynasties de la Caucasie Chrétienne_, and it does appear likely that
there are male-line descendants today, e.g., descendants of the Georgian
(Bagratid) royal family.

Prof. Kelley wrote up a little commentary on DNA testing in November 2002,
which I'll take the liberty to append.

-- Don Stone


Use of Y-chromosome DNA
by David H. Kelley

The Y chromosome is inherited in the male line only. Small differences in
the structure of the Y chromosome occur in successive generations,
accumulating through time. Hence, the degree of similarity marks the degree
of (biological) relationship.

Neil Bradman and his associates first applied the study of DNA sequences to
Jewish history with their study of the DNA of Kohanim. Later Bradman, at
the instigation of Moshe Shaltiel, undertook studies of families claiming
descent from King David, including the Shaltiels, Gracians, Benvenistes and
Charlaps.

The main problem encountered in utilizing DNA for genealogical studies is
that social paternity does not always coincide with biological paternity.
This has been called the "false paternity" problem. That terminology
implies that biological paternity is somehow more "real" than social
paternity. It is clear that biological paternity and social paternity are
different in their effects, but each may be extremely important to the way
that children develop.

There are several ways in which the difference between social paternity and
biological paternity may arise. Socially disapproved sexual relationships
which produce offspring have led to the concept of "illegitimacy" or
"bastardy". However, a very common practice which also causes such a
difference is adoption. In either case, the relationship may be a matter of
record or may be unknown or lost from the record.

The following is a list of genealogical situations which DNA testing _might_
illuminate.

The Charlaps claim to descend from the Iacchias (Ibn Yahyas) and claim that
the Iacchias descend from the House of David. However, there is some
indication of possible confusion.

The Hinrichsens descend from the Iacchias.

The Berdugos claim descent from the Exilarch Bustanai, of the 7th century
C.E., recognized as the heir of King David.

The Dayyans of Aleppo in Syria have an unbroken pedigree to Bustanai.

The Jewish Kings of Narbonne were recognized as descendants of the House of
David. Their descendants included families named Narbonne/Narboni,
Todros/Todrosi, Beaucaire, de Surgères, and Nathan.

Judah Loew, of Prague, the Maharal, sometimes used the family name Nantua.
Neil Rosenstein has recently shown that his claimed descent from an earlier
Judah Loew of Prague is unlikely. A late pedigree of the Loews derives them
from Hai, Gaon of Pumbedita, son of Sherira, claimed descendant of the House
of David.

The English Courtenay family claim descent from Athon de Courtenay, who held
land earlier possessed by the Counts of Sens. It has been suggested that
the Courtenays descend from the counts of Sens. Renard, Count of Sens in
the early 11th century, demanded that his servants address him as "King of
the Jews".

The Bagratid (Bagration) family of Georgia claimed descent from the House of
David, which claim is attested by the 9th century C.E. A detailed pedigree
is regarded by modern scholars as a substantially later forgery.

An ossuary labeled "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus", has recently
come to light. One report mentions that the ossuary contains what appear to
be bone fragments. [This was written shortly after this ossuary came to
light, I believe.]


This thread: