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From: "Phil Moody" <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:42:48 -0500
References: <20040417115947.64564.qmail@web41703.mail.yahoo.com> <001001c424be$5ccde4c0$16c8fea9@oemcomputer>


Grady, thank you for your input. If you will go to the URL I provided - you
will be able to read the entire study. The gist of it concurs with the idea
that there was no large scale migrations during the pre-iron age of the
British Isles. The technological advancements during this period are explained
by a diffusion of information with the Continent, as opposed to the old
notions of large scale migration; although I do not doubt there was SOME
migration. As I said in my first post - this is a comprehensive study, and it
includes Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Orcadian (a Pictish-Norse fusion) and Frisian Y
DNA - not just the Welsh, Irish and Basque. In the material I quoted - it also
included Turks, Syrians, Anatolians and unpublished Asian Y DNA research; so I
do not loosely use the word Comprehensive:-)

Best Wishes,
Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Grady Loy" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was:
Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]


> I do not know anything specific of the DNA of the Welsh or Irish other than
> what I read in Mr. Moody's post. It may be significant though that it is
> now coming to be thought that in the various prehistori and ancient
> invasions of the British Isles, the actual numbers of migrants has tended to
> be small. Certainly the numbers of Anglo Saxons that actually migrated from
> the German are now thought to be small, at most several ten thousand onto
> islands whose total population was somewhere between one and five million.
> It appears increasingly as if Gildas account of the Anglo Saxons being
> brought over as mercenaries or federates was right and they probably
> rebelled when whoever it was that hired them lost power or was no longer
> able to pay them. They took over and administered the country and the
> conquered population, for whatever reasons some peoples as opposed to others
> choose to do this, adapted to the ways and language of their conquerors.
> Hence the change in language is not necessarily matched by a an equally
> dramatic change in the genetic makeup of the population. It is likely that
> the Celts from the continent were able to impose their rule and language on
> the indigenous peoples of Great Britain and Ireland several hunred years
> before the Romans and then the Saxons were able to do so. The people least
> affected by these migrations would be the people in the west, the Welsh, the
> West Country English, the Cymri of Cumberland, the Dalriatan Scots, the
> Picts, the Irish, the Cornish and so on. This was likely to have been true
> up to the Danish and Norse invasions anyway. The Danish and Norse Invasions
> and the peaceful migrations of settlers from the European Low Countries and
> from time to time from France probably affected the genetic makeup more
> significantly of the English and perhaps to a lesser extent the West
> Countries. However, I do not know one way or the other but would expect
> that given that there is not that much real evidence for a fire and sword
> conquest of the Britih Isles involving wholesale extermination or exiling of
> indigenous populations (as was long believed to be the case) I would expect
> the genetic makeup of the Celtic Countries of the British Isles to be
> somewhat different and perhaps more "indigenous" to western Europe (though
> we are all indiginous soemwhere) than that of the LaTene Celts or the
> Halstatt Celts who first came out of Eastern Europe between two and three
> thousand years ago.
>
> I remeber hearing that the Alani were once settled around Orleans in France
> (360's) and that they were the bodygaurd of choice for the Emperor Gratian
> (Aetius likewise preferred the Huns, Aegidus the Franks and Avitus the
> Visigoths) prior to his assasination by the usurping emperor Maximus.
> Another "Scythian" (and perhaps essentially similar people from the Caucasus
> or nearby) group were the Teifali who though not Germanic were regarded as
> part of the Visigoths, and who settled near Poitiers in France in the mid to
> late 400's and who were still a distinct population in that region in the
> mid 500's. I would be interested to know if anyone knows more about their
> origins.
>
> Also on the topic of descents from the Georgian Royal family, Anna Comnena
> mentiones a member of that family (Maria) marrying into the Byzantine
> Comneni but not in the main line (to a brother of the emperor).
>
> Best Regards
>
> Grady Loy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 8:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was:
> Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
>
> Dear Carolyn,
>
> I must say I'm having trouble following you. Basque is
> an isolated language, perhaps related to another
> isolated language in mid-Asia, while the Celtic group
> is derived from the indo-european (or indo-hittite)
> family.
>
> It is conjectured that the name Iberia was carried
> from Eastern Iberia to Spain by the Alans; the name
> Galicia to Galiza in Northern Portugal was again
> derived from some similar migratory movement.
>
> The Basque people, again, is *very* isolated: one of
> their genetic characteristics is the Rh negative blood
> group.
>
> fa
>
>
> --- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
> escreveu: > This potential Basque-Celtic connection is
> very
> > interesting indeed.
> > When my husband and I first came to Georgia a few
> > years ago, we were
> > told that the only hypothetical connections between
> > the Georgian
> > language group (which includes Georgian, Mingrelian,
> > Svan and Tsan, and
> > Georgian-Jewish [a dialect of Georgian as Yiddish is
> > of German and
> > Ladino of Spanish] -- all languages restricted to
> > the Caucasus region)
> > are Basque and Gaelic. Since then, we have heard
> > that some linguists
> > have pooh-poohed the potential Gaelic and/or Basque
> > connections with
> > Georgian -- now if they are connected with each
> > other that adds to the
> > sense that there could be possible connections of
> > Georgian with both.
> >
> > The potential Basque connection with the Georgians
> > is intriguing ...
> > we've always been puzzled as to why ancient East
> > Georgia (which is where
> > the Udi live) was called Iberia, a term now used for
> > Spain, although one
> > theory was that the Romans simply used the term for
> > "a far-away place,"
> > which, of course, both Georgia and Spain were
> > vis--vis ancient Rome. It
> > would make sense that people from the Caucasus might
> > want to settle in
> > the Pyrenees, just as my Scottish ancestors were
> > attracted to the
> > mountains of North Carolina (many places in Georgia
> > remind me of both
> > Scotland and North Carolina).
> >
> > My friend who's been working with the Udi people
> > here actually started
> > with Irish voyage origin legends and worked his way
> > back through 10
> > locations in the early ballads to the Caucasus. It
> > will make an
> > interesting study when he finally gets a chance to
> > write it.
> >
> > At present, all we have is interesting speculation,
> > so it would be
> > exciting to get some kind of scientific studies (DNA
> > & linguistic) of
> > the people here. Of course, because of all the
> > foreign invasions the
> > genetics of the people here are undoubtedly a vast
> > hodge-podge. I'm told
> > a significant number of newborns here in Georgia
> > carry the "Mongol spot"
> > -- which is common among Hungarians as well -- a
> > large blue bruise-like
> > birthmark in the "small" of the backside below the
> > waist -- an
> > indication of Asian genetic heritage -- I've noticed
> > most Korean babies
> > have the same marking, which disappears when they
> > get older. The Mongol
> > invasion of Georgia was so devastating that
> > something like 90% of the
> > people were killed during that period, and the
> > population has never
> > fully recovered in numbers.
> >
> > My husband, who is of Jewish descent (except through
> > the
> > paternal-paternal-paternal line, which is Prussian
> > -- hence no Y DNA
> > connection with early Jews, though one culturally
> > inherits "being
> > Jewish" through one's mother), and I, who am largely
> > of Celtic descent
> > (both the Clarks and the Campbells came from
> > Scotland), though lots of
> > my lineage is English, both feel absolutely "at
> > home" in this culture --
> > an odd experience in a land with such an alien
> > language. We've traveled
> > to many countries where we've loved the people and
> > their culture, but
> > never before had the "feeling" of almost having
> > re-discovered "home". I
> > keep eerily running into men who look remarkably
> > like they could be my
> > father's brothers, while my husband finds it an
> > extraordinary experience
> > to be warmly welcomed for his Jewish heritage by
> > people who consider
> > "their" Jews to be an important and treasured part
> > of their own culture
> > and history.
> >
> > Europeans who come here immediately identify Georgia
> > as obviously
> > European -- the appearance, the demeanor, the
> > intellectual history is so
> > evidently European. Italians write about how
> > Italian the culture seems,
> > but French see how closely it is allied to French
> > culture, and the
> > Germans and Dutch and Scandinavians feel a warm
> > sense of brotherhood
> > with the people. Yet having lived as a part of an
> > Asian family in my
> > early years (my first husband was Korean) I see so
> > many parallels with
> > Asian culture -- a Korean would feel very much at
> > home in Georgian
> > family life ... What is it about this place that we
> > all feel such an
> > affinity?
> >
> > (Undoubtedly totally irrelevant: a Malagasque friend
> > of mine who spent
> > some time with the Basques, upon seeing photos of my
> > grandchildren who
> > are 1/2 Irish, through their father, and 1/4 Korean,
> > through my
> > daughter, exclaimed -- oh, my! They look exactly
> > like Basque children!)
> >
> > Carolyn Clark Campbell
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Phil Moody [mailto:]
> > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 7:31 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> > Garden of Eden?
> > [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> > "Carolyn Clark Campbell" wrote:
> >
> > the Ossetians (now trying to be independent of
> > Georgia in the
> > > south and Russia in the north), are more credibly
> > claimed to be the
> > > descendants of the Scythians, who moved across
> > Europe as the Goths;
> > and
> > > years ago I remember reading in the National
> > Geographic that the Celts
> > > also originated here and spread across Europe
> > during the last
> > millennium
> > > B.C. One linguist is trying to document a
> > connection between Gaelic
> > and
> > > the language of the remaining Udi people (less
> > than 1,000 left) who
> > were
> > > expelled by Stalin but have returned to their
> > original homeland in
> > East
> > > Georgia, where the Romans originally called them
> > Albanians (no
> > relation
> > > to current Albania) and they had a major
> > civilization with its own
> > > writing system.
> >
> > PLM: Perhaps, it would behoove this linguist to
> > substantiate his
> > research with
> > some Y DNA testing of the Udi male population. Here
> > is an interesting
> > study
> > online "Genetic evidence for different male and
> > female roles during
> > cultural
> > transitions in the British Isles", at:
> > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/9/5078
> >
> > A few quotes to peak your interest:-)
> >
> > "Basque Population History. To investigate the
> > degree of paternal
> > genetic
> > continuity in the British Isles through the
> > Neolithic and the
> > development of
> > Iron Age cultures, we compared the Welsh and Irish
> > samples with 50
> > Basques
> > (28, 29). The Basques are widely believed to be
> > descended from the
> > Paleolithic
> > inhabitants of Europe for reasons including the
> > following: ***(i) Basque
> > is a
> > non-Indo-European language with some features
> > suggesting a distant
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
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