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Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082246324


From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: Basques, indo-europeans, linguistics plus some comments on epistemology
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 20:58:46 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <00f701c424b5$b7b21b80$d1e60d44@tu.ok.cox.net>


So you deny the indo-european hypothesis?

I don't agree with you, especially with your
epistemological remarks (see at the end of my text),
but let me anyway restate my views:

- Basque is unrelated to any indo-european language,
to finno-ugric, ural-altaic, afro-asiatic, dravidic,
or similar group. We can feel some i.-e. flavor in
Etruscan (the -c copula, a sophisticated nominal
flexion system, names for numbers 6 and 7), but Basque
is too weird.

- There were Alan migrations to Spain and Portugal (my
mother's family pre-surname was precisely ``the
Alans'' in the 10th and 11th century, and *that* is
documented historical fact). Also the Visigoths in
their long march to Spain and Portugal very likely
went through the eastern Galicia. So, it appears
plausible to relate these names, Iberia and Galicia,
to those migrations.

On your epistemological considerations. I have a
friend, David Miller, who is a well-known British
philosopher of science. He was a very close
collaborator of Sir Karl Popper, and he once remarked
*en passant* that the main gist of Sir Karl's
falsifiability criterion for scientific hypotheses is
that science is always subject to doubt. Absolute
certainties do not exist in science, not even in math.


I'll give you an example: in Dec 2003 I published a
paper with a colleague on a major open question in
computer science. The Journal of Symbolic Logic
immediately reviewed it with highly unusual haste -
they usually take years to publish reviews - and
claimed that one of our conditions was wrong. We are
now answering and rebutting the reviewer's assertion,
but we know (for technical reasons) that any proof of
the condition we used will require a so-called strong
principle, which isn't unanimously accepted among
mathematicians. So, even in math there is room for
doubt...

Please revise your epistemological tenets; allow me
some frankness here - you do not seem to grasp the
meaning of scientific practice and of scientific
statements. Science is science because it can be
doubted; it *is* to be doubted.

Francisco Antonio Doria

--- Phil Moody <> escreveu: >
"Francisco Antonio Doria" wrote:
>
> > I must say I'm having trouble following you.
> Basque is
> > an isolated language, perhaps related to another
> > isolated language in mid-Asia, while the Celtic
> group
> > is derived from the indo-european (or
> indo-hittite)
> > family.
>
> PLM: Linguistics is a highly conjectural field, and
> one should not give much
> weight to any particular theory, which may, or may
> not correct. The Y DNA
> study finds the Paternal ancestry of the Basque,
> Welsh and Irish to be so
> similar, as to call their Y DNA indistinguishable.
> This means that they share
> a Common Paternal Ancestry that is very Ancient, and
> this being the case -
> then they also shared at one point - a Common
> Tongue! Given this Y DNA
> evidence, any Linguistic theory that is contrary to
> the Common Origin between
> the Basque and Celts of Wales and Ireland is simply
> wrong. This is why I
> mentioned this Y DNA study, because it adds
> irrefutable proof of the
> relationship between the Basque and Celts, and
> suggests a common origin that
> would undoubtedly include a common tongue.
>
> > It is conjectured that the name Iberia was carried
> > from Eastern Iberia to Spain by the Alans; the
> name
> > Galicia to Galiza in Northern Portugal was again
> > derived from some similar migratory movement.
>
> PLM: "Conjectured" must not be misconstrued as fact,
> as you well know. As I
> inferred above, Linguistics and the subsequent
> migration theories inherent in
> them - are only "Conjectural"; so we must bear this
> in mind. I believe Y DNA
> studies of various ethnic groups will greatly
> enhance the field of
> Linguistics, and the subsequent theories which
> incorporate Y DNA analysis will
> be better supported than Linguistic theories which
> do not utilize this
> exciting new field of research. It is my
> understanding that there were two
> places in Europe known as Galicia; so which came
> first?
>
> Best Wishes,
> Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 6:59 AM
> Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden? [Was:
> Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> >
> > Dear Carolyn,
> >
> > I must say I'm having trouble following you.
> Basque is
> > an isolated language, perhaps related to another
> > isolated language in mid-Asia, while the Celtic
> group
> > is derived from the indo-european (or
> indo-hittite)
> > family.
> >
> > It is conjectured that the name Iberia was carried
> > from Eastern Iberia to Spain by the Alans; the
> name
> > Galicia to Galiza in Northern Portugal was again
> > derived from some similar migratory movement.
> >
> > The Basque people, again, is *very* isolated: one
> of
> > their genetic characteristics is the Rh negative
> blood
> > group.
> >
> > fa
> >
> >
> > --- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
> > escreveu: > This potential Basque-Celtic
> connection is
> > very
> > > interesting indeed.
> > > When my husband and I first came to Georgia a
> few
> > > years ago, we were
> > > told that the only hypothetical connections
> between
> > > the Georgian
> > > language group (which includes Georgian,
> Mingrelian,
> > > Svan and Tsan, and
> > > Georgian-Jewish [a dialect of Georgian as
> Yiddish is
> > > of German and
> > > Ladino of Spanish] -- all languages restricted
> to
> > > the Caucasus region)
> > > are Basque and Gaelic. Since then, we have
> heard
> > > that some linguists
> > > have pooh-poohed the potential Gaelic and/or
> Basque
> > > connections with
> > > Georgian -- now if they are connected with each
> > > other that adds to the
> > > sense that there could be possible connections
> of
> > > Georgian with both.
> > >
> > > The potential Basque connection with the
> Georgians
> > > is intriguing ...
> > > we've always been puzzled as to why ancient East
> > > Georgia (which is where
> > > the Udi live) was called Iberia, a term now used
> for
> > > Spain, although one
> > > theory was that the Romans simply used the term
> for
> > > "a far-away place,"
> > > which, of course, both Georgia and Spain were
> > > vis-à-vis ancient Rome. It
> > > would make sense that people from the Caucasus
> might
> > > want to settle in
> > > the Pyrenees, just as my Scottish ancestors were
> > > attracted to the
> > > mountains of North Carolina (many places in
> Georgia
> > > remind me of both
> > > Scotland and North Carolina).
> > >
> > > My friend who's been working with the Udi people
> > > here actually started
> > > with Irish voyage origin legends and worked his
> way
> > > back through 10
> > > locations in the early ballads to the Caucasus.
> It
> > > will make an
> > > interesting study when he finally gets a chance
> to
> > > write it.
> > >
> > > At present, all we have is interesting
> speculation,
> > > so it would be
> > > exciting to get some kind of scientific studies
> (DNA
> > > & linguistic) of
> > > the people here. Of course, because of all the
> > > foreign invasions the
> > > genetics of the people here are undoubtedly a
> vast
> > > hodge-podge. I'm told
> > > a significant number of newborns here in Georgia
> > > carry the "Mongol spot"
> > > -- which is common among Hungarians as well -- a
> > > large blue bruise-like
> > > birthmark in the "small" of the backside below
> the
> > > waist -- an
> > > indication of Asian genetic heritage -- I've
> noticed
> > > most Korean babies
> > > have the same marking, which disappears when
> they
> > > get older. The Mongol
> > > invasion of Georgia was so devastating that
> > > something like 90% of the
> > > people were killed during that period, and the
> > > population has never
> > > fully recovered in numbers.
> > >
> > > My husband, who is of Jewish descent (except
> through
> > > the
> > > paternal-paternal-paternal line, which is
> Prussian
> > > -- hence no Y DNA
> > > connection with early Jews, though one
> culturally
> > > inherits "being
>
=== message truncated ===

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