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From: "Carolyn Clark Campbell" <>
Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:06:20 +0500
In-Reply-To: <20040418001232.11854.qmail@web41708.mail.yahoo.com>


Thanks, Francisco,

Prominent Georgian linguists disagree on whether the Georgian language
is Indo-European or not, as well as on whether the Georgian language
family is related to any other language. The only two other languages
even speculated on that I have heard about are Basque or Gaelic (not
necessarily both being suggested by the same people), and not being a
linguist myself I have no idea how far-fetched these speculations are.
I know that there are non-Georgian linguists who, like you, dismiss
these theories as unprofessional speculations, but so far as I can tell
most of these people have not studied the Georgian language, so I don't
know on what evidence they base their conclusions.

There are perhaps 30 different languages spoken within the Caucasus area
(only 5 of them belonging to the Georgian language group), and some are
spoken by only a few remaining people (about 700 still speak the Udi
language, I believe, which was anciently called "Albanian" by the
Romans). It certainly is possible that some of these languages could be
related to Basque, Gaelic, or some other language that was taken across
Europe or Asia by groups who migrated out from the Caucasus. If
research is not done within the next few years, much of this will be
lost to posterity.

The Soros Foundation here just did a "women's oral history,"
interviewing women from 30 distinct different ethnic groups living
within Georgia. However, the interviews were all in Georgian (the
national language) or Russian (spoken as a second language by most of
the minorities who don't speak Georgian, as well as by most Georgians),
so as far as I know no effort has been made to preserve the multitude of
languages for posterity. More than 80% of the population within the
boundaries of contemporary Georgia are ethnically Georgian and speak the
Georgian language, and one expects that like the Cornish language in
South West Britain which was overwhelmed by English and died out a
century ago, these local languages will be overwhelmed by Georgian and
will disappear within a generation or so.

You are right that the word "Georgia," which is not the name the
Georgians use for their country in their own language, was Greek for
"farmer". The Greeks colonized the West Coast of Georgia, along the
Black Sea, very early, and the region was indeed Colchis, where the
legendary Argonauts, led by Jason, supposedly came. The Georgians call
their country Sa-Kartvelo, from the regional name Kartli (the area
surrounding Tbilisi in East Georgia), which legend has it is named after
Kartlos, grandson of Noah. I have heard that the word "Caucasus"
originally meant "Mountain of Languages" and came from the fact that so
many languages were spoken here that languages were deemed to have all
come from here originally. It's a charming legend.

As for whether the Basques went to Spain before the Georgians came to
Georgia, I have no information at all. I accept your assertion that the
Basques have been in Spain for a very, very long time. Humanoid remains
have been found in Georgia from approximately 1.7 million years ago
(together with remains of giraffes and rhinoceros), the oldest yet found
outside of Africa. Obviously, if we all came from Africa originally,
the ancestors of the Georgians likely came across the Middle East land
mass and ultimately came up against the great barrier of the Caucasus
mountain chain. The Basques could have come across the Straits of
Gibraltar, I suppose, or across the European land mass. Either way,
they got there some time, and in some way. Whether there is any
connection in these migrations, I think we don't at this moment have
enough evidence to know. The romantic in me likes to speculate that the
various migrations across the European land mass came through and out of
a Caucasian "Garden of Eden," but the trained lawyer/analyst other side
of me says there is certainly little evidence to prove it and probably
insufficient evidence to disprove it at this time.

Best wishes,

Carolyn

Carolyn Clark Campbell
Tbilisi, Georgia


-----Original Message-----
From: Francisco Antonio Doria
[mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 5:13 AM
To: ;
Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden?
[Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]


Carolyn,

Georgian is indo-european, as far as I can tell. It is
beyond my reach, however, and even if I'm wrong here,
it definitely isn't related to Basque. The name is
derived from Greek, georgòs, he who tends the land,
farmer.

I'll check it anyway.

For genes & languages see the two books by L.
Cavalli-Sforza.

fa

--- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
escreveu: > I was responding to the prior message
indicating a
> possible genetic
> connection between Basques and Celts. I am not a
> linguist, but have
> been told of theories that the Georgian language is
> related to either
> Basque or Gaelic. Some have argued that it is not
> an Indo-European
> language, while others have argued that it is. I
> can do nothing more
> than report what I have heard and read, since I am
> no expert.
>
> I am aware of the information about the DNA
> peculiarities of the
> Basques. In one study I read, there was some
> evidence of a possible DNA
> connection between them and people of the North
> Caucasus.
>
> I don't think that the DNA or linguistic connections
> between people in
> the Caucasus have been studied sufficiently to
> include or exclude
> connections between any of the subgroups of the
> Caucasus and either the
> Basque people or Celts. They wouldn't have to both
> be true, or both be
> false.
>
> At this point, anything is only interesting
> speculation. Interesting
> speculation sometimes leads to discoveries;
> sometimes it leads to dead
> ends. As when Schliemann followed an interesting
> speculation to look
> for Troy, I find it useful to not dismiss such
> speculations until they
> are scientifically excluded. After all, at some
> point we're all
> connected, and if we're looking for ancient
> genealogy and genetic
> connections, we have to follow a lot of speculative
> paths or not try at
> all.
>
> Carolyn
>
> Carolyn Clark Campbell
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francisco Antonio Doria
> [mailto:]
> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 5:00 PM
> To: ;
> Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden?
> [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> Dear Carolyn,
>
> I must say I'm having trouble following you. Basque
> is
> an isolated language, perhaps related to another
> isolated language in mid-Asia, while the Celtic
> group
> is derived from the indo-european (or indo-hittite)
> family.
>
> It is conjectured that the name Iberia was carried
> from Eastern Iberia to Spain by the Alans; the name
> Galicia to Galiza in Northern Portugal was again
> derived from some similar migratory movement.
>
> The Basque people, again, is *very* isolated: one of
> their genetic characteristics is the Rh negative
> blood
> group.
>
> fa
>
>
> --- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
> escreveu: > This potential Basque-Celtic connection
> is
> very
> > interesting indeed.
> > When my husband and I first came to Georgia a few
> > years ago, we were
> > told that the only hypothetical connections
> between
> > the Georgian
> > language group (which includes Georgian,
> Mingrelian,
> > Svan and Tsan, and
> > Georgian-Jewish [a dialect of Georgian as Yiddish
> is
> > of German and
> > Ladino of Spanish] -- all languages restricted to
> > the Caucasus region)
> > are Basque and Gaelic. Since then, we have heard
> > that some linguists
> > have pooh-poohed the potential Gaelic and/or
> Basque
> > connections with
> > Georgian -- now if they are connected with each
> > other that adds to the
> > sense that there could be possible connections of
> > Georgian with both.
> >
> > The potential Basque connection with the Georgians
> > is intriguing ...
> > we've always been puzzled as to why ancient East
> > Georgia (which is where
> > the Udi live) was called Iberia, a term now used
> for
> > Spain, although one
> > theory was that the Romans simply used the term
> for
> > "a far-away place,"
> > which, of course, both Georgia and Spain were
> > vis-à-vis ancient Rome. It
> > would make sense that people from the Caucasus
> might
> > want to settle in
> > the Pyrenees, just as my Scottish ancestors were
> > attracted to the
> > mountains of North Carolina (many places in
> Georgia
> > remind me of both
> > Scotland and North Carolina).
> >
> > My friend who's been working with the Udi people
> > here actually started
> > with Irish voyage origin legends and worked his
> way
> > back through 10
> > locations in the early ballads to the Caucasus.
> It
> > will make an
> > interesting study when he finally gets a chance to
> > write it.
> >
> > At present, all we have is interesting
> speculation,
> > so it would be
> > exciting to get some kind of scientific studies
> (DNA
> > & linguistic) of
> > the people here. Of course, because of all the
> > foreign invasions the
> > genetics of the people here are undoubtedly a vast
> > hodge-podge. I'm told
> > a significant number of newborns here in Georgia
> > carry the "Mongol spot"
> > -- which is common among Hungarians as well -- a
> > large blue bruise-like
> > birthmark in the "small" of the backside below the
> > waist -- an
> > indication of Asian genetic heritage -- I've
> noticed
> > most Korean babies
> > have the same marking, which disappears when they
> > get older. The Mongol
> > invasion of Georgia was so devastating that
> > something like 90% of the
> > people were killed during that period, and the
> > population has never
> > fully recovered in numbers.
> >
> > My husband, who is of Jewish descent (except
> through
> > the
> > paternal-paternal-paternal line, which is Prussian
> > -- hence no Y DNA
> > connection with early Jews, though one culturally
> > inherits "being
> > Jewish" through one's mother), and I, who am
> largely
> > of Celtic descent
> > (both the Clarks and the Campbells came from
> > Scotland), though lots of
> > my lineage is English, both feel absolutely "at
> > home" in this culture --
> > an odd experience in a land with such an alien
> > language. We've traveled
> > to many countries where we've loved the people and
> > their culture, but
> > never before had the "feeling" of almost having
> > re-discovered "home". I
> > keep eerily running into men who look remarkably
> > like they could be my
> > father's brothers, while my husband finds it an
> > extraordinary experience
> > to be warmly welcomed for his Jewish heritage by
> > people who consider
> > "their" Jews to be an important and treasured part
> > of their own culture
> > and history.
>
=== message truncated ===

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