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Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082286755


From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:12:35 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <002301c42513$ab2f0bd0$0500a8c0@SAINTNINO>



Dear Carolyn,

My knowledge of linguistics derives from the fact that
I once had to use linguistic evolution for historical
& archaeological datations - so, it's limited by what
I then learned. (Of course I'm still conversant with
the classical languages, and that adds up to the
whole.)

I coundn't find a recent reference on the origins of
Georgian; let me check it again today. But notice that
Gaelic is a Celtic/Keltic language, and is therefore
an indo-european language.

Kartvelian ... that sounds Finnish, doesn't it?

Let me check it instead of just speculate. All the
best to you,

fa

--- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
escreveu: > Thanks, Francisco,
>
> Prominent Georgian linguists disagree on whether the
> Georgian language
> is Indo-European or not, as well as on whether the
> Georgian language
> family is related to any other language. The only
> two other languages
> even speculated on that I have heard about are
> Basque or Gaelic (not
> necessarily both being suggested by the same
> people), and not being a
> linguist myself I have no idea how far-fetched these
> speculations are.
> I know that there are non-Georgian linguists who,
> like you, dismiss
> these theories as unprofessional speculations, but
> so far as I can tell
> most of these people have not studied the Georgian
> language, so I don't
> know on what evidence they base their conclusions.
>
> There are perhaps 30 different languages spoken
> within the Caucasus area
> (only 5 of them belonging to the Georgian language
> group), and some are
> spoken by only a few remaining people (about 700
> still speak the Udi
> language, I believe, which was anciently called
> "Albanian" by the
> Romans). It certainly is possible that some of
> these languages could be
> related to Basque, Gaelic, or some other language
> that was taken across
> Europe or Asia by groups who migrated out from the
> Caucasus. If
> research is not done within the next few years, much
> of this will be
> lost to posterity.
>
> The Soros Foundation here just did a "women's oral
> history,"
> interviewing women from 30 distinct different ethnic
> groups living
> within Georgia. However, the interviews were all in
> Georgian (the
> national language) or Russian (spoken as a second
> language by most of
> the minorities who don't speak Georgian, as well as
> by most Georgians),
> so as far as I know no effort has been made to
> preserve the multitude of
> languages for posterity. More than 80% of the
> population within the
> boundaries of contemporary Georgia are ethnically
> Georgian and speak the
> Georgian language, and one expects that like the
> Cornish language in
> South West Britain which was overwhelmed by English
> and died out a
> century ago, these local languages will be
> overwhelmed by Georgian and
> will disappear within a generation or so.
>
> You are right that the word "Georgia," which is not
> the name the
> Georgians use for their country in their own
> language, was Greek for
> "farmer". The Greeks colonized the West Coast of
> Georgia, along the
> Black Sea, very early, and the region was indeed
> Colchis, where the
> legendary Argonauts, led by Jason, supposedly came.
> The Georgians call
> their country Sa-Kartvelo, from the regional name
> Kartli (the area
> surrounding Tbilisi in East Georgia), which legend
> has it is named after
> Kartlos, grandson of Noah. I have heard that the
> word "Caucasus"
> originally meant "Mountain of Languages" and came
> from the fact that so
> many languages were spoken here that languages were
> deemed to have all
> come from here originally. It's a charming legend.
>
> As for whether the Basques went to Spain before the
> Georgians came to
> Georgia, I have no information at all. I accept
> your assertion that the
> Basques have been in Spain for a very, very long
> time. Humanoid remains
> have been found in Georgia from approximately 1.7
> million years ago
> (together with remains of giraffes and rhinoceros),
> the oldest yet found
> outside of Africa. Obviously, if we all came from
> Africa originally,
> the ancestors of the Georgians likely came across
> the Middle East land
> mass and ultimately came up against the great
> barrier of the Caucasus
> mountain chain. The Basques could have come across
> the Straits of
> Gibraltar, I suppose, or across the European land
> mass. Either way,
> they got there some time, and in some way. Whether
> there is any
> connection in these migrations, I think we don't at
> this moment have
> enough evidence to know. The romantic in me likes
> to speculate that the
> various migrations across the European land mass
> came through and out of
> a Caucasian "Garden of Eden," but the trained
> lawyer/analyst other side
> of me says there is certainly little evidence to
> prove it and probably
> insufficient evidence to disprove it at this time.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Carolyn
>
> Carolyn Clark Campbell
> Tbilisi, Georgia
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francisco Antonio Doria
> [mailto:]
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 5:13 AM
> To: ;
> Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden?
> [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> Carolyn,
>
> Georgian is indo-european, as far as I can tell. It
> is
> beyond my reach, however, and even if I'm wrong
> here,
> it definitely isn't related to Basque. The name is
> derived from Greek, georgòs, he who tends the land,
> farmer.
>
> I'll check it anyway.
>
> For genes & languages see the two books by L.
> Cavalli-Sforza.
>
> fa
>
> --- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
> escreveu: > I was responding to the prior message
> indicating a
> > possible genetic
> > connection between Basques and Celts. I am not a
> > linguist, but have
> > been told of theories that the Georgian language
> is
> > related to either
> > Basque or Gaelic. Some have argued that it is not
> > an Indo-European
> > language, while others have argued that it is. I
> > can do nothing more
> > than report what I have heard and read, since I am
> > no expert.
> >
> > I am aware of the information about the DNA
> > peculiarities of the
> > Basques. In one study I read, there was some
> > evidence of a possible DNA
> > connection between them and people of the North
> > Caucasus.
> >
> > I don't think that the DNA or linguistic
> connections
> > between people in
> > the Caucasus have been studied sufficiently to
> > include or exclude
> > connections between any of the subgroups of the
> > Caucasus and either the
> > Basque people or Celts. They wouldn't have to
> both
> > be true, or both be
> > false.
> >
> > At this point, anything is only interesting
> > speculation. Interesting
> > speculation sometimes leads to discoveries;
> > sometimes it leads to dead
> > ends. As when Schliemann followed an interesting
> > speculation to look
> > for Troy, I find it useful to not dismiss such
> > speculations until they
> > are scientifically excluded. After all, at some
> > point we're all
> > connected, and if we're looking for ancient
>
=== message truncated ===

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