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Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082288187


From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:36:27 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <002101c424fd$76b166c0$0500a8c0@SAINTNINO>


On the Armenian connexion in Spain and Portugal:

There is an old legend that says that Dom Mendo Alam
[Lord Hermengild of the Alans] in the 11th century
raped an Armenian princess who was doing a pilgrimage
to Santiago de Compostella [Compostella derives from
compostum, garbage]. That was in the monastery of
Castro de Avelãs.

I at first thought that this legend had to do with
very early migrations from the far East to Portugal.
Now I think that it reflects the origins of
Ardabasto/Artavazd who sired several of the late
Visigothic kings, and from whom the 9th century Counts
of Coimbra are very likely descended, including
Hermengild [Mendo] Guterres, 878. But perhaps there
was some kind of conflation of both memories...

fa
-- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
escreveu: > Dear F.A.,
>
> Does this mean that the term "Iberia" with respect
> to Spain was not used
> by the early Greeks, or by the Romans prior to the
> 5th Century AD? I
> had thought it was, but perhaps I am mistaken.
> Thanks!
>
> I assume this term is completely unrelated to the
> term "Hibernia," used
> (by the Romans?) for Ireland.
>
> I understand your reference to Galatia, Galicia [the
> apparently Celtic
> root word seems to also contribute to the terms
> "Gaul" "Gallic" and
> "Gaelic"] -- and assume you are using this as a
> parallel illustration,
> rather than implying a connection with the term
> "Iberia".
>
> The history of all the peoples who came TO Spain
> seems about as diverse
> and interesting as the history of all the peoples
> who went forth FROM
> Georgia to other parts of the world. You must find
> the exploration
> fascinating.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Carolyn
>
> Carolyn Clark Campbell
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francisco Antonio Doria
> [mailto:]
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 5:00 AM
> To:
> Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden?
> [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> As far as I can tell your dating is correct.
>
> fa
>
> --- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
> escreveu: > By the way, the people you refer to as
> the
> Alans,
> > also called Alanni,
> > are the ancestors of today's Ossetians, who still
> > live in Georgia and
> > Russia (South and North of the Caucasus). I
> thought
> > they did not go to
> > Spain until around the 5th Century A.D.
> >
> > Carolyn
> >
> > Carolyn Clark Campbell
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Francisco Antonio Doria
> > [mailto:]
> > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 5:00 PM
> > To: ;
>
> > Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus
> -
> > Garden of Eden?
> > [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> >
> > Dear Carolyn,
> >
> > I must say I'm having trouble following you.
> Basque
> > is
> > an isolated language, perhaps related to another
> > isolated language in mid-Asia, while the Celtic
> > group
> > is derived from the indo-european (or
> indo-hittite)
> > family.
> >
> > It is conjectured that the name Iberia was carried
> > from Eastern Iberia to Spain by the Alans; the
> name
> > Galicia to Galiza in Northern Portugal was again
> > derived from some similar migratory movement.
> >
> > The Basque people, again, is *very* isolated: one
> of
> > their genetic characteristics is the Rh negative
> > blood
> > group.
> >
> > fa
> >
> >
> > --- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
> > escreveu: > This potential Basque-Celtic
> connection
> > is
> > very
> > > interesting indeed.
> > > When my husband and I first came to Georgia a
> few
> > > years ago, we were
> > > told that the only hypothetical connections
> > between
> > > the Georgian
> > > language group (which includes Georgian,
> > Mingrelian,
> > > Svan and Tsan, and
> > > Georgian-Jewish [a dialect of Georgian as
> Yiddish
> > is
> > > of German and
> > > Ladino of Spanish] -- all languages restricted
> to
> > > the Caucasus region)
> > > are Basque and Gaelic. Since then, we have
> heard
> > > that some linguists
> > > have pooh-poohed the potential Gaelic and/or
> > Basque
> > > connections with
> > > Georgian -- now if they are connected with each
> > > other that adds to the
> > > sense that there could be possible connections
> of
> > > Georgian with both.
> > >
> > > The potential Basque connection with the
> Georgians
> > > is intriguing ...
> > > we've always been puzzled as to why ancient East
> > > Georgia (which is where
> > > the Udi live) was called Iberia, a term now used
> > for
> > > Spain, although one
> > > theory was that the Romans simply used the term
> > for
> > > "a far-away place,"
> > > which, of course, both Georgia and Spain were
> > > vis-à-vis ancient Rome. It
> > > would make sense that people from the Caucasus
> > might
> > > want to settle in
> > > the Pyrenees, just as my Scottish ancestors were
> > > attracted to the
> > > mountains of North Carolina (many places in
> > Georgia
> > > remind me of both
> > > Scotland and North Carolina).
> > >
> > > My friend who's been working with the Udi people
> > > here actually started
> > > with Irish voyage origin legends and worked his
> > way
> > > back through 10
> > > locations in the early ballads to the Caucasus.
> > It
> > > will make an
> > > interesting study when he finally gets a chance
> to
> > > write it.
> > >
> > > At present, all we have is interesting
> > speculation,
> > > so it would be
> > > exciting to get some kind of scientific studies
> > (DNA
> > > & linguistic) of
> > > the people here. Of course, because of all the
> > > foreign invasions the
> > > genetics of the people here are undoubtedly a
> vast
> > > hodge-podge. I'm told
> > > a significant number of newborns here in Georgia
> > > carry the "Mongol spot"
> > > -- which is common among Hungarians as well -- a
> > > large blue bruise-like
> > > birthmark in the "small" of the backside below
> the
> > > waist -- an
> > > indication of Asian genetic heritage -- I've
> > noticed
> > > most Korean babies
> > > have the same marking, which disappears when
> they
> > > get older. The Mongol
> > > invasion of Georgia was so devastating that
>
=== message truncated ===

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