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From: "Grady Loy" <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:31:39 +0900
References: <20040419091141.21911.qmail@web41706.mail.yahoo.com> <011401c42634$0f62bae0$d1e60d44@tu.ok.cox.net>


Dear Phil:

In this connection I think it could be argued that a sedentary and
relatively isolated people may accept the language and custom of new comers
with attractive technological or cultural attributes or may be conquered by
them with much the same result. There need not necessarily be that much
intermarriage or migration that might alter the genetic characteristics of
the population as a whole. We know that both Celts and Germans invaded
various areas in Europe and many times brought their culture and language to
these areas. As invaders however both groups tended to be warrior tribes
and later organized military societies like the Goths who lived to fight in
the service of the Romans (until the Romans were not able to pay them
anymore) However there is nothing to suggest that their numbers were
excesively large in the areas they occuppied or that (popular conceptions
and the Anglo Saxon Chronicles more lurid stories notwithstanding) they put
the local inhabitants to death upon occuppying a region. Hence there is
every reason to suspect that populations remained relatively intact (from
the standpoint of genetic makeup) or only changed slowly, at least in the
areas that were not along the main migration routes, while languages
changed. I understand from the example of the Basques that not every
population adopted the ways and speech of the conqueror or newcomer and the
reasons why some did and some did not are probaly lost in pre history or in
the intricacies of the interactions between particular cultures, but I think
this is at least a plausible explanation for why Basque and Welsh/Irish
Celts are both arguably genetically ancient inahbitants of the respective
lands where they now live but now speak languages which do not resemble each
other. (The Basques and Insular Celts are also quite a distance apart and
human settlement of Europe predates the advent of Indo Euroepan culture and
language in the west by an immense time period. It is difficult to tell now
whether Europe was once an area occuppied by indigenous cultures and
liguistic groups covering vast areas of if it was a patchwork of intensely
different groups. Hopefully the DNA testing that is the current topic will
remove some of the mystery in the years to come as techniques become more
advanced. While I respect such current scholarship and research in this
area as I am aware of, both from my own reading and as a result of this
discussion, I am convinced there is a inestimably large amount that has yet
to be discovered in regard to the late pre-historical make-up of Europe)

Best Regards

Grady Loy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Moody" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was:
Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]


> Dear Chico:
>
> > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his gene-wave
> > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't contradict
> > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > particular, the indo-european spread by farming, as
> > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000 b.C.E.,
> > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
>
> PLM: There appears to be a paradox in Cavalli-Sforza conclusions then;
because
> his genetic testing suggests a relationship between the Basque and Celtic
> populations, and I see no rational explanation for this conundrum. One
cannot
> prove that two cultures share the same genetic background, and then on the
> otherhand, suggest that they are not Linguistically related. I still
contend
> that if the Basque and the Celts share a Common Paternal Ancestry - then
it is
> logical to suppose they shared a Common Language as well - in the very
distant
> past. Therefore, I believe the Celtic Languages need to be adjusted on the
> Linguistic Tree; so they stem from the Basque (non Indo-European), instead
of
> their present position as Indo-European. The ancient Historians did not
name
> the Gauls (Celts) "Foreigners" for no reason, and I believe it is because
they
> were originally non Indo-European, and therefore unknown to the European
World
> at that time. Do you not find it a little more than coincidental that
Galatia
> is not to distant from the territory where the Basque now live, and that
> Galatia may take it's name from the original territory of the Gallic race,
> whose tribes became dominate on the West Coast of the Continent?
>
> Back to this point in the Wilson, et al Y DNA article.
>
> "The Basques are widely believed to be descended from the Paleolithic
> inhabitants of Europe for reasons including the following: (i) Basque is a
> non-Indo-European language with some features suggesting a distant
> relationship with the North Caucasian language family (30, 31)." EQ
>
> So, if the Basque can be Linguistically connected to the North Caucasian
> Language family, then why is it so hard to believe that the Basque can be
> related Linguistically to Cultures closer to their homelands; especially
when
> Y DNA analysis suggests that the Celts and Basque share a common Paternal
> ancestry? Linguist will have to address this issue presently, and either
> adjust their current theoretical models, or give a rational reason for not
> doing so and I don't believe the latter can be done to anyone's
satisfaction.
> Oh, the references cited above:-)
>
> "30. Gamkrelidze, T. & Ivanov, V. (1990) Sci. Am. 262 (March),
110-116[ISI]."
> "31. Bengtson, J. D. (1991) in Sino-Caucasian Languages, ed.
Shevoroshkin, V.
> (Brockmeyer, Bochum, Germany), pp. 67-172."
>
> The "ISI" is a hyperlink to http://www.isinet.com/ Thomson ISI, but I
could
> not access the article.
>
> Cheers,
> Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 4:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was:
> Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> >
> > Dear Phil,
> >
> > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his gene-wave
> > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't contradict
> > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > particular, the indo-european spread by farming, as
> > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000 b.C.E.,
> > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> >
> > And - current status of knowledge (BTW since Schlegel
> > in the 19th century, Rask, Saussure, Meillet and
> > Vendryes, Benveniste usw) is that the Keltic languages
> > are a centum group within the i.-e. family.
> >
> > fa
> >
> > --- Phil Moody <> escreveu: > Dear
> > Chico:
> > >
>
>
>
>
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