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From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:10:56 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <00fc01c426aa$509ed9a0$16c8fea9@oemcomputer>


Dear Grady,

One of the alternative views of the indo-european
expansion over Europe (sponsored by Colin Renfrew) is
that of the agricultural expansion. No warrior class
dominating a peaceful population in this picture.

Best, fa

--- Grady Loy <> escreveu: >
Dear Phil:
>
> In this connection I think it could be argued that a
> sedentary and
> relatively isolated people may accept the language
> and custom of new comers
> with attractive technological or cultural attributes
> or may be conquered by
> them with much the same result. There need not
> necessarily be that much
> intermarriage or migration that might alter the
> genetic characteristics of
> the population as a whole. We know that both Celts
> and Germans invaded
> various areas in Europe and many times brought their
> culture and language to
> these areas. As invaders however both groups tended
> to be warrior tribes
> and later organized military societies like the
> Goths who lived to fight in
> the service of the Romans (until the Romans were not
> able to pay them
> anymore) However there is nothing to suggest that
> their numbers were
> excesively large in the areas they occuppied or that
> (popular conceptions
> and the Anglo Saxon Chronicles more lurid stories
> notwithstanding) they put
> the local inhabitants to death upon occuppying a
> region. Hence there is
> every reason to suspect that populations remained
> relatively intact (from
> the standpoint of genetic makeup) or only changed
> slowly, at least in the
> areas that were not along the main migration routes,
> while languages
> changed. I understand from the example of the
> Basques that not every
> population adopted the ways and speech of the
> conqueror or newcomer and the
> reasons why some did and some did not are probaly
> lost in pre history or in
> the intricacies of the interactions between
> particular cultures, but I think
> this is at least a plausible explanation for why
> Basque and Welsh/Irish
> Celts are both arguably genetically ancient
> inahbitants of the respective
> lands where they now live but now speak languages
> which do not resemble each
> other. (The Basques and Insular Celts are also
> quite a distance apart and
> human settlement of Europe predates the advent of
> Indo Euroepan culture and
> language in the west by an immense time period. It
> is difficult to tell now
> whether Europe was once an area occuppied by
> indigenous cultures and
> liguistic groups covering vast areas of if it was a
> patchwork of intensely
> different groups. Hopefully the DNA testing that is
> the current topic will
> remove some of the mystery in the years to come as
> techniques become more
> advanced. While I respect such current scholarship
> and research in this
> area as I am aware of, both from my own reading and
> as a result of this
> discussion, I am convinced there is a inestimably
> large amount that has yet
> to be discovered in regard to the late
> pre-historical make-up of Europe)
>
> Best Regards
>
> Grady Loy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Moody" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 2:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden? [Was:
> Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> > Dear Chico:
> >
> > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> gene-wave
> > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> contradict
> > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > > particular, the indo-european spread by farming,
> as
> > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> b.C.E.,
> > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> >
> > PLM: There appears to be a paradox in
> Cavalli-Sforza conclusions then;
> because
> > his genetic testing suggests a relationship
> between the Basque and Celtic
> > populations, and I see no rational explanation for
> this conundrum. One
> cannot
> > prove that two cultures share the same genetic
> background, and then on the
> > otherhand, suggest that they are not
> Linguistically related. I still
> contend
> > that if the Basque and the Celts share a Common
> Paternal Ancestry - then
> it is
> > logical to suppose they shared a Common Language
> as well - in the very
> distant
> > past. Therefore, I believe the Celtic Languages
> need to be adjusted on the
> > Linguistic Tree; so they stem from the Basque (non
> Indo-European), instead
> of
> > their present position as Indo-European. The
> ancient Historians did not
> name
> > the Gauls (Celts) "Foreigners" for no reason, and
> I believe it is because
> they
> > were originally non Indo-European, and therefore
> unknown to the European
> World
> > at that time. Do you not find it a little more
> than coincidental that
> Galatia
> > is not to distant from the territory where the
> Basque now live, and that
> > Galatia may take it's name from the original
> territory of the Gallic race,
> > whose tribes became dominate on the West Coast of
> the Continent?
> >
> > Back to this point in the Wilson, et al Y DNA
> article.
> >
> > "The Basques are widely believed to be descended
> from the Paleolithic
> > inhabitants of Europe for reasons including the
> following: (i) Basque is a
> > non-Indo-European language with some features
> suggesting a distant
> > relationship with the North Caucasian language
> family (30, 31)." EQ
> >
> > So, if the Basque can be Linguistically connected
> to the North Caucasian
> > Language family, then why is it so hard to believe
> that the Basque can be
> > related Linguistically to Cultures closer to their
> homelands; especially
> when
> > Y DNA analysis suggests that the Celts and Basque
> share a common Paternal
> > ancestry? Linguist will have to address this issue
> presently, and either
> > adjust their current theoretical models, or give a
> rational reason for not
> > doing so and I don't believe the latter can be
> done to anyone's
> satisfaction.
> > Oh, the references cited above:-)
> >
> > "30. Gamkrelidze, T. & Ivanov, V. (1990) Sci. Am.
> 262 (March),
> 110-116[ISI]."
> > "31. Bengtson, J. D. (1991) in Sino-Caucasian
> Languages, ed.
> Shevoroshkin, V.
> > (Brockmeyer, Bochum, Germany), pp. 67-172."
> >
> > The "ISI" is a hyperlink to http://www.isinet.com/
> Thomson ISI, but I
> could
> > not access the article.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 4:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus
> - Garden of Eden? [Was:
> > Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Phil,
> > >
> > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> gene-wave
>
=== message truncated ===

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