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Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082481029


From: "Phil Moody" <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:10:29 -0500
References: <20040419193256.96625.qmail@web41705.mail.yahoo.com>


Dear Chico:

I was not suggesting that the Basque are not Non Indo-European, but rather
that the Celts are also a Non Indo-European Culture - based upon their Common
Paternal Origins. This would be a very ancient Paternal Connection - say
during the Paleolithic era - allowing for a vast amount of time for the once
Common Language to become unrecognizable with the other. So, where the Basque
culture remained relatively isolated - the Celts were more adventurous and
became warriors and Craftsman. The Celts interacted with all the Indo-European
Cultures it came into contact with, and traded durable goods; so there was a
greater need for the Celts to Communicate with these other Cultures
(Languages), and this Linguistic Interaction over thousands of years
accelerated the rate of change in the Celtic Language; whereas the Basque
language was stagnant by comparison. Thus, we have two cultures with a common
genetic origin, and yet their Languages are now unrecognizable as having a
common origin. Genetically - the Celts are Non Indo-European Paternally - at
any rate - this is how I interpret the Wilson, et al Y DNA results.

Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was:
Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]


>
> Phil,
>
> I have Cavalli-Sforza here, _Genes, Peoples and
> Languages_, U of California Press, 2000. The Basque
> genetic background is the 5th principal component (in
> genetic distribution) in Europe. The i.-e. components
> are the 1st, 3rd and 4th. So, they are different.
>
> fa
>
> --- Phil Moody <> escreveu: > Dear
> Chico:
> >
> > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > gene-wave
> > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > contradict
> > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > > particular, the indo-european spread by farming,
> > as
> > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > b.C.E.,
> > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> >
> > PLM: There appears to be a paradox in Cavalli-Sforza
> > conclusions then; because
> > his genetic testing suggests a relationship between
> > the Basque and Celtic
> > populations, and I see no rational explanation for
> > this conundrum. One cannot
> > prove that two cultures share the same genetic
> > background, and then on the
> > otherhand, suggest that they are not Linguistically
> > related. I still contend
> > that if the Basque and the Celts share a Common
> > Paternal Ancestry - then it is
> > logical to suppose they shared a Common Language as
> > well - in the very distant
> > past. Therefore, I believe the Celtic Languages need
> > to be adjusted on the
> > Linguistic Tree; so they stem from the Basque (non
> > Indo-European), instead of
> > their present position as Indo-European. The ancient
> > Historians did not name
> > the Gauls (Celts) "Foreigners" for no reason, and I
> > believe it is because they
> > were originally non Indo-European, and therefore
> > unknown to the European World
> > at that time. Do you not find it a little more than
> > coincidental that Galatia
> > is not to distant from the territory where the
> > Basque now live, and that
> > Galatia may take it's name from the original
> > territory of the Gallic race,
> > whose tribes became dominate on the West Coast of
> > the Continent?
> >
> > Back to this point in the Wilson, et al Y DNA
> > article.
> >
> > "The Basques are widely believed to be descended
> > from the Paleolithic
> > inhabitants of Europe for reasons including the
> > following: (i) Basque is a
> > non-Indo-European language with some features
> > suggesting a distant
> > relationship with the North Caucasian language
> > family (30, 31)." EQ
> >
> > So, if the Basque can be Linguistically connected to
> > the North Caucasian
> > Language family, then why is it so hard to believe
> > that the Basque can be
> > related Linguistically to Cultures closer to their
> > homelands; especially when
> > Y DNA analysis suggests that the Celts and Basque
> > share a common Paternal
> > ancestry? Linguist will have to address this issue
> > presently, and either
> > adjust their current theoretical models, or give a
> > rational reason for not
> > doing so and I don't believe the latter can be done
> > to anyone's satisfaction.
> > Oh, the references cited above:-)
> >
> > "30. Gamkrelidze, T. & Ivanov, V. (1990) Sci. Am.
> > 262 (March), 110-116[ISI]."
> > "31. Bengtson, J. D. (1991) in Sino-Caucasian
> > Languages, ed. Shevoroshkin, V.
> > (Brockmeyer, Bochum, Germany), pp. 67-172."
> >
> > The "ISI" is a hyperlink to http://www.isinet.com/
> > Thomson ISI, but I could
> > not access the article.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> > <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 4:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> > Garden of Eden? [Was:
> > Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Phil,
> > >
> > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > gene-wave
> > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > contradict
> > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > > particular, the indo-european spread by farming,
> > as
> > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > b.C.E.,
> > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> > >
> > > And - current status of knowledge (BTW since
> > Schlegel
> > > in the 19th century, Rask, Saussure, Meillet and
> > > Vendryes, Benveniste usw) is that the Keltic
> > languages
> > > are a centum group within the i.-e. family.
> > >
> > > fa
> > >
> > > --- Phil Moody <> escreveu: >
> > Dear
> > > Chico:
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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