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Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082489906


From: "Carolyn Clark Campbell" <>
Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:38:26 +0500
In-Reply-To: <011901c426fa$62ae8320$d1e60d44@tu.ok.cox.net>


Dear Phil,

This is very interesting indeed! This is also the argument of my friend
who's studying the linguistic connection between the small remaining
group in Georgia that he's been working with and the Celts -- that in
fact the Celtic languages are actually non-Indo-European. He believes
that early "proof" that Gaelic was Indo-European was a
"politically-correct" decision, rather than a scientific one, because
this was during the era when to say one was non-Indo-European meant that
one was not "Aryan" -- perhaps one was even Semitic -- and the Celts
were not about to submit to a theory that saw them as perhaps more
primitive -- less "advanced" than the other "races" in Europe. This
point of view is no longer a political necessity, so it's possible to
look at the issue more dispassionately now and re-examine the evidence.
I have no idea if my friend is right or not, but it's an interesting
theory, and one needs to challenge "conventional wisdom" once in a
while. Anyway, I'm hoping he'll soon get this all written up and
published.

Carolyn Clark Campbell


-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Moody [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:10 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden?
[Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]

Dear Chico:

I was not suggesting that the Basque are not Non Indo-European, but
rather
that the Celts are also a Non Indo-European Culture - based upon their
Common
Paternal Origins. This would be a very ancient Paternal Connection - say
during the Paleolithic era - allowing for a vast amount of time for the
once
Common Language to become unrecognizable with the other. So, where the
Basque
culture remained relatively isolated - the Celts were more adventurous
and
became warriors and Craftsman. The Celts interacted with all the
Indo-European
Cultures it came into contact with, and traded durable goods; so there
was a
greater need for the Celts to Communicate with these other Cultures
(Languages), and this Linguistic Interaction over thousands of years
accelerated the rate of change in the Celtic Language; whereas the
Basque
language was stagnant by comparison. Thus, we have two cultures with a
common
genetic origin, and yet their Languages are now unrecognizable as having
a
common origin. Genetically - the Celts are Non Indo-European Paternally
- at
any rate - this is how I interpret the Wilson, et al Y DNA results.

Best Wishes,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden?
[Was:
Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]


>
> Phil,
>
> I have Cavalli-Sforza here, _Genes, Peoples and
> Languages_, U of California Press, 2000. The Basque
> genetic background is the 5th principal component (in
> genetic distribution) in Europe. The i.-e. components
> are the 1st, 3rd and 4th. So, they are different.
>
> fa
>
> --- Phil Moody <> escreveu: > Dear
> Chico:
> >
> > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > gene-wave
> > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > contradict
> > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > > particular, the indo-european spread by farming,
> > as
> > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > b.C.E.,
> > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> >
> > PLM: There appears to be a paradox in Cavalli-Sforza
> > conclusions then; because
> > his genetic testing suggests a relationship between
> > the Basque and Celtic
> > populations, and I see no rational explanation for
> > this conundrum. One cannot
> > prove that two cultures share the same genetic
> > background, and then on the
> > otherhand, suggest that they are not Linguistically
> > related. I still contend
> > that if the Basque and the Celts share a Common
> > Paternal Ancestry - then it is
> > logical to suppose they shared a Common Language as
> > well - in the very distant
> > past. Therefore, I believe the Celtic Languages need
> > to be adjusted on the
> > Linguistic Tree; so they stem from the Basque (non
> > Indo-European), instead of
> > their present position as Indo-European. The ancient
> > Historians did not name
> > the Gauls (Celts) "Foreigners" for no reason, and I
> > believe it is because they
> > were originally non Indo-European, and therefore
> > unknown to the European World
> > at that time. Do you not find it a little more than
> > coincidental that Galatia
> > is not to distant from the territory where the
> > Basque now live, and that
> > Galatia may take it's name from the original
> > territory of the Gallic race,
> > whose tribes became dominate on the West Coast of
> > the Continent?
> >
> > Back to this point in the Wilson, et al Y DNA
> > article.
> >
> > "The Basques are widely believed to be descended
> > from the Paleolithic
> > inhabitants of Europe for reasons including the
> > following: (i) Basque is a
> > non-Indo-European language with some features
> > suggesting a distant
> > relationship with the North Caucasian language
> > family (30, 31)." EQ
> >
> > So, if the Basque can be Linguistically connected to
> > the North Caucasian
> > Language family, then why is it so hard to believe
> > that the Basque can be
> > related Linguistically to Cultures closer to their
> > homelands; especially when
> > Y DNA analysis suggests that the Celts and Basque
> > share a common Paternal
> > ancestry? Linguist will have to address this issue
> > presently, and either
> > adjust their current theoretical models, or give a
> > rational reason for not
> > doing so and I don't believe the latter can be done
> > to anyone's satisfaction.
> > Oh, the references cited above:-)
> >
> > "30. Gamkrelidze, T. & Ivanov, V. (1990) Sci. Am.
> > 262 (March), 110-116[ISI]."
> > "31. Bengtson, J. D. (1991) in Sino-Caucasian
> > Languages, ed. Shevoroshkin, V.
> > (Brockmeyer, Bochum, Germany), pp. 67-172."
> >
> > The "ISI" is a hyperlink to http://www.isinet.com/
> > Thomson ISI, but I could
> > not access the article.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> > <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 4:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> > Garden of Eden? [Was:
> > Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Phil,
> > >
> > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > gene-wave
> > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > contradict
> > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > > particular, the indo-european spread by farming,
> > as
> > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > b.C.E.,
> > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> > >
> > > And - current status of knowledge (BTW since
> > Schlegel
> > > in the 19th century, Rask, Saussure, Meillet and
> > > Vendryes, Benveniste usw) is that the Keltic
> > languages
> > > are a centum group within the i.-e. family.
> > >
> > > fa
> > >
> > > --- Phil Moody <> escreveu: >
> > Dear
> > > Chico:
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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