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Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082491952


From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:12:32 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <011901c426fa$62ae8320$d1e60d44@tu.ok.cox.net>


Dear Phil,

I just answered this message to both you and Carolyn.

Best, chico

--- Phil Moody <> escreveu: > Dear
Chico:
>
> I was not suggesting that the Basque are not Non
> Indo-European, but rather
> that the Celts are also a Non Indo-European Culture
> - based upon their Common
> Paternal Origins. This would be a very ancient
> Paternal Connection - say
> during the Paleolithic era - allowing for a vast
> amount of time for the once
> Common Language to become unrecognizable with the
> other. So, where the Basque
> culture remained relatively isolated - the Celts
> were more adventurous and
> became warriors and Craftsman. The Celts interacted
> with all the Indo-European
> Cultures it came into contact with, and traded
> durable goods; so there was a
> greater need for the Celts to Communicate with these
> other Cultures
> (Languages), and this Linguistic Interaction over
> thousands of years
> accelerated the rate of change in the Celtic
> Language; whereas the Basque
> language was stagnant by comparison. Thus, we have
> two cultures with a common
> genetic origin, and yet their Languages are now
> unrecognizable as having a
> common origin. Genetically - the Celts are Non
> Indo-European Paternally - at
> any rate - this is how I interpret the Wilson, et al
> Y DNA results.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 2:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden? [Was:
> Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> >
> > Phil,
> >
> > I have Cavalli-Sforza here, _Genes, Peoples and
> > Languages_, U of California Press, 2000. The
> Basque
> > genetic background is the 5th principal component
> (in
> > genetic distribution) in Europe. The i.-e.
> components
> > are the 1st, 3rd and 4th. So, they are different.
> >
> > fa
> >
> > --- Phil Moody <> escreveu: >
> Dear
> > Chico:
> > >
> > > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > > gene-wave
> > > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > > contradict
> > > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe.
> In
> > > > particular, the indo-european spread by
> farming,
> > > as
> > > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > > b.C.E.,
> > > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> > >
> > > PLM: There appears to be a paradox in
> Cavalli-Sforza
> > > conclusions then; because
> > > his genetic testing suggests a relationship
> between
> > > the Basque and Celtic
> > > populations, and I see no rational explanation
> for
> > > this conundrum. One cannot
> > > prove that two cultures share the same genetic
> > > background, and then on the
> > > otherhand, suggest that they are not
> Linguistically
> > > related. I still contend
> > > that if the Basque and the Celts share a Common
> > > Paternal Ancestry - then it is
> > > logical to suppose they shared a Common Language
> as
> > > well - in the very distant
> > > past. Therefore, I believe the Celtic Languages
> need
> > > to be adjusted on the
> > > Linguistic Tree; so they stem from the Basque
> (non
> > > Indo-European), instead of
> > > their present position as Indo-European. The
> ancient
> > > Historians did not name
> > > the Gauls (Celts) "Foreigners" for no reason,
> and I
> > > believe it is because they
> > > were originally non Indo-European, and therefore
> > > unknown to the European World
> > > at that time. Do you not find it a little more
> than
> > > coincidental that Galatia
> > > is not to distant from the territory where the
> > > Basque now live, and that
> > > Galatia may take it's name from the original
> > > territory of the Gallic race,
> > > whose tribes became dominate on the West Coast
> of
> > > the Continent?
> > >
> > > Back to this point in the Wilson, et al Y DNA
> > > article.
> > >
> > > "The Basques are widely believed to be descended
> > > from the Paleolithic
> > > inhabitants of Europe for reasons including the
> > > following: (i) Basque is a
> > > non-Indo-European language with some features
> > > suggesting a distant
> > > relationship with the North Caucasian language
> > > family (30, 31)." EQ
> > >
> > > So, if the Basque can be Linguistically
> connected to
> > > the North Caucasian
> > > Language family, then why is it so hard to
> believe
> > > that the Basque can be
> > > related Linguistically to Cultures closer to
> their
> > > homelands; especially when
> > > Y DNA analysis suggests that the Celts and
> Basque
> > > share a common Paternal
> > > ancestry? Linguist will have to address this
> issue
> > > presently, and either
> > > adjust their current theoretical models, or give
> a
> > > rational reason for not
> > > doing so and I don't believe the latter can be
> done
> > > to anyone's satisfaction.
> > > Oh, the references cited above:-)
> > >
> > > "30. Gamkrelidze, T. & Ivanov, V. (1990) Sci.
> Am.
> > > 262 (March), 110-116[ISI]."
> > > "31. Bengtson, J. D. (1991) in Sino-Caucasian
> > > Languages, ed. Shevoroshkin, V.
> > > (Brockmeyer, Bochum, Germany), pp. 67-172."
> > >
> > > The "ISI" is a hyperlink to
> http://www.isinet.com/
> > > Thomson ISI, but I could
> > > not access the article.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Phil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> > > <>
> > > To: <>
> > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 4:11 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the
> Caucasus -
> > > Garden of Eden? [Was:
> > > Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Phil,
> > > >
> > > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > > gene-wave
> > > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > > contradict
> > > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe.
> In
> > > > particular, the indo-european spread by
> farming,
> > > as
> > > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > > b.C.E.,
> > > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> > > >
> > > > And - current status of knowledge (BTW since
> > > Schlegel
> > > > in the 19th century, Rask, Saussure, Meillet
> and
> > > > Vendryes, Benveniste usw) is that the Keltic
>
=== message truncated ===

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