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From: "Grady Loy" <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:18:59 +0900
References: <20040420091056.52995.qmail@web41701.mail.yahoo.com>


I have unfortunately not looked at Colin Renfrew's publication or
publications regading this though I will make an effort to do so. Does he
refer to the spread of actual people or the spread of ideas and ways of
doing things (agricultural expanison). There was a similar debate in Japan
as to whether there was actually a migration of people from the continent
bringing about a cultural change between the Jomon and Yayoi periods or
whether it was widespread introduction of rice farming culture from the
Korean peninsula and possibly from points further south by way of Okinawa.
The view is tending toward itroduction of innovative agriculatural
technology and away from migration. There has been some migration but in a
conversation with an archeology professor at Tokyo University such migration
was not in a population displacing wave but slowly over centuries.

I can understand the idea of Indo European culture spreading as an
agricultural revolution - More productive technologies allow for larger
populations who soon outnumber indigenous hunter gatherer societies. And
certainly that must have happened. If that happened one can certainly
assume that the smaller numbers of surviving indigenous peoples would
contribute relatively less to the genetic pool and would tend to be swamped
by the immigrants. However, there is the alternative process of indigenous
peoples adopting technology and culture in advance of a wave of migration.
The larger the disparity im material culture the larger the likelihood of
the former occuring (eg the North American Continent in the 15th to 19th
centuries where in addition to disease and hostle policy, the sheer number
of immegrants able to live in dense communities overcame and almost
destroyed the North American indigenous peoples). I hae heard that the Indo
Europeans had innovations in agriculture and they came from an area that in
the pre BCE millenia was also very innovative in other technologies (for
example metallurgy). However, if the invasion or advent was some time
around 2000 BCE there is evidence of extensive trade and agricuture at least
on a scale to support public projects like stonehenge and the menhirs of
Western Europe. The continuing genetic diversity of peoples in Europe (just
in the difference in appearance from region to region alone) strongly
suggests that any homogenizing effect of an Indo European population
expansion/migration was very limited. It is probably unfair for me to make
any conclusion without reading Renfrew but there has been a tendency in
historical circles over some centuries to view the change in language and
culture in a region as evidence that its indigenous people were destroyed
and replaced. Modern historical work suggests much more continuity and
adaptability at least in the periods we can see some evidence for.

My comment vis a vis the warrior class should properly refer to the late
pre-historic and early hsitoric periods. If one were to look at the Vandal
or Lombard Kingdoms in Germania during the empire or the Atrebates in Belgae
before the Empire one would find farmers and others working the land led by
freemen or a warrior caste. When these poeples migrated it was largely the
warrior and leadership caste that moved (though when they settled many of
them doubtless took up agriculture as a mean of survival.) It would almost
certainly be impractical in such migrations to uproot the entire farming
class of a country and take them on long journeys of the sort these tribes
engaged in. One historian (Crawford) has suggested the extreme of this for
the Anglo Saxon Invasion of England - only a few thousand hired soldiers
called in by Romans and later the British elites after the departure of the
Roman Administration established viable communities (presumably by mixing
with the local population) and after a period of time began to exert
political control and ultimately cultural dominance.

I have just seen a paper on the internet regarding this by Mr. Weale (
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-MBE-02-AS.pdf ). I have not read
the whole of it but he makes two interesting points at the outset -

With regard to the findings by a study by Wilson et al (2001) he found
"evidence for Celtic male ancestry in the North Welsh and/or both Celtic and
Scandinavian ancestry in the male (Viking) ancestry in the modern Orcadian
population. Further comparisons of these data with Basque data suggested
that the male Celtic genetic component was Paleolithic in origin and
therefore that subsequent culturan transitions in North Wales were not
associated with substantial incoming (male) gene flow." The paper
associates such cultural transitions with "the elite dominance model of
Renfrew 1987" which posits the adoption of new cultures could occur through
trade or the introduction of a small ruling elite with little or no impact
on the gene pool." (Weale's paper in contracdiction to Crawford's study
ssuggests that at least in the midlants there was substantial male migration
of Anglos Saxons from the continent-sometimes it is one way and sometimes
another. I think in fairness to Crawford he was talking about the initial
invasions)

I will close by saying I think there may be a problem in the correlations of
the definitions of the terms "Indo European" and/or "Celtic." among the
specialists. Are these races or peoples or are they in fact cultures shared
by a wide diversity of genetic populations. The answer as is usual in these
situations is probably a combination. However, when Wilson says the "Celts"
are Paleolithic I think from a racial or genetic standpoint by "Celt" he
means a pre Roman inhabitant of Britain whereas the term "Celtic" is more
widely understood I think to refer to a culture or set of cultures
originating in central Europe in early in the last millenium BCE and
spreading acros Europe over the succeeding centuries. In that sense I do
not think his use of the word "Celt" impies an Indo European in a genetic or
racial sense even though (I must agree) it seems well established Welsh is a
language of the Indo European family.

Best Regards

Grady Loy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was:
Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]


>
> Dear Grady,
>
> One of the alternative views of the indo-european
> expansion over Europe (sponsored by Colin Renfrew) is
> that of the agricultural expansion. No warrior class
> dominating a peaceful population in this picture.
>
> Best, fa
>
> --- Grady Loy <> escreveu: >
> Dear Phil:
> >
> > In this connection I think it could be argued that a
> > sedentary and
> > relatively isolated people may accept the language
> > and custom of new comers
> > with attractive technological or cultural attributes
> > or may be conquered by
> > them with much the same result. There need not
> > necessarily be that much
> > intermarriage or migration that might alter the
> > genetic characteristics of
> > the population as a whole. We know that both Celts
> > and Germans invaded
> > various areas in Europe and many times brought their
> > culture and language to
> > these areas. As invaders however both groups tended
> > to be warrior tribes
> > and later organized military societies like the
> > Goths who lived to fight in
> > the service of the Romans (until the Romans were not
> > able to pay them
> > anymore) However there is nothing to suggest that
> > their numbers were
> > excesively large in the areas they occuppied or that
> > (popular conceptions
> > and the Anglo Saxon Chronicles more lurid stories
> > notwithstanding) they put
> > the local inhabitants to death upon occuppying a
> > region. Hence there is
> > every reason to suspect that populations remained
> > relatively intact (from
> > the standpoint of genetic makeup) or only changed
> > slowly, at least in the
> > areas that were not along the main migration routes,
> > while languages
> > changed. I understand from the example of the
> > Basques that not every
> > population adopted the ways and speech of the
> > conqueror or newcomer and the
> > reasons why some did and some did not are probaly
> > lost in pre history or in
> > the intricacies of the interactions between
> > particular cultures, but I think
> > this is at least a plausible explanation for why
> > Basque and Welsh/Irish
> > Celts are both arguably genetically ancient
> > inahbitants of the respective
> > lands where they now live but now speak languages
> > which do not resemble each
> > other. (The Basques and Insular Celts are also
> > quite a distance apart and
> > human settlement of Europe predates the advent of
> > Indo Euroepan culture and
> > language in the west by an immense time period. It
> > is difficult to tell now
> > whether Europe was once an area occuppied by
> > indigenous cultures and
> > liguistic groups covering vast areas of if it was a
> > patchwork of intensely
> > different groups. Hopefully the DNA testing that is
> > the current topic will
> > remove some of the mystery in the years to come as
> > techniques become more
> > advanced. While I respect such current scholarship
> > and research in this
> > area as I am aware of, both from my own reading and
> > as a result of this
> > discussion, I am convinced there is a inestimably
> > large amount that has yet
> > to be discovered in regard to the late
> > pre-historical make-up of Europe)
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Grady Loy
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Phil Moody" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 2:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> > Garden of Eden? [Was:
> > Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> >
> > > Dear Chico:
> > >
> > > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > gene-wave
> > > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > contradict
> > > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe. In
> > > > particular, the indo-european spread by farming,
> > as
> > > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > b.C.E.,
> > > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> > >
> > > PLM: There appears to be a paradox in
> > Cavalli-Sforza conclusions then;
> > because
> > > his genetic testing suggests a relationship
> > between the Basque and Celtic
> > > populations, and I see no rational explanation for
> > this conundrum. One
> > cannot
> > > prove that two cultures share the same genetic
> > background, and then on the
> > > otherhand, suggest that they are not
> > Linguistically related. I still
> > contend
> > > that if the Basque and the Celts share a Common
> > Paternal Ancestry - then
> > it is
> > > logical to suppose they shared a Common Language
> > as well - in the very
> > distant
> > > past. Therefore, I believe the Celtic Languages
> > need to be adjusted on the
> > > Linguistic Tree; so they stem from the Basque (non
> > Indo-European), instead
> > of
> > > their present position as Indo-European. The
> > ancient Historians did not
> > name
> > > the Gauls (Celts) "Foreigners" for no reason, and
> > I believe it is because
> > they
> > > were originally non Indo-European, and therefore
> > unknown to the European
> > World
> > > at that time. Do you not find it a little more
> > than coincidental that
> > Galatia
> > > is not to distant from the territory where the
> > Basque now live, and that
> > > Galatia may take it's name from the original
> > territory of the Gallic race,
> > > whose tribes became dominate on the West Coast of
> > the Continent?
> > >
> > > Back to this point in the Wilson, et al Y DNA
> > article.
> > >
> > > "The Basques are widely believed to be descended
> > from the Paleolithic
> > > inhabitants of Europe for reasons including the
> > following: (i) Basque is a
> > > non-Indo-European language with some features
> > suggesting a distant
> > > relationship with the North Caucasian language
> > family (30, 31)." EQ
> > >
> > > So, if the Basque can be Linguistically connected
> > to the North Caucasian
> > > Language family, then why is it so hard to believe
> > that the Basque can be
> > > related Linguistically to Cultures closer to their
> > homelands; especially
> > when
> > > Y DNA analysis suggests that the Celts and Basque
> > share a common Paternal
> > > ancestry? Linguist will have to address this issue
> > presently, and either
> > > adjust their current theoretical models, or give a
> > rational reason for not
> > > doing so and I don't believe the latter can be
> > done to anyone's
> > satisfaction.
> > > Oh, the references cited above:-)
> > >
> > > "30. Gamkrelidze, T. & Ivanov, V. (1990) Sci. Am.
> > 262 (March),
> > 110-116[ISI]."
> > > "31. Bengtson, J. D. (1991) in Sino-Caucasian
> > Languages, ed.
> > Shevoroshkin, V.
> > > (Brockmeyer, Bochum, Germany), pp. 67-172."
> > >
> > > The "ISI" is a hyperlink to http://www.isinet.com/
> > Thomson ISI, but I
> > could
> > > not access the article.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Phil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> > <>
> > > To: <>
> > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 4:11 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus
> > - Garden of Eden? [Was:
> > > Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Phil,
> > > >
> > > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > gene-wave
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
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