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From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:59:54 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <002201c42765$7f47ab40$16c8fea9@oemcomputer>


Dear Grady,

Please take a look a the Cavalli-Sforza 2000 book I've
mentioned. He distinguishes three [possibly, my
qualification] i.-e. migrations:

- The farmers' expansion (Renfrew's wave).

- The `warriors' ' expansion (Gimbuta's wave).

- The Greek wave.

Best, fa

--- Grady Loy <> escreveu: > I
have unfortunately not looked at Colin Renfrew's
> publication or
> publications regading this though I will make an
> effort to do so. Does he
> refer to the spread of actual people or the spread
> of ideas and ways of
> doing things (agricultural expanison). There was a
> similar debate in Japan
> as to whether there was actually a migration of
> people from the continent
> bringing about a cultural change between the Jomon
> and Yayoi periods or
> whether it was widespread introduction of rice
> farming culture from the
> Korean peninsula and possibly from points further
> south by way of Okinawa.
> The view is tending toward itroduction of innovative
> agriculatural
> technology and away from migration. There has been
> some migration but in a
> conversation with an archeology professor at Tokyo
> University such migration
> was not in a population displacing wave but slowly
> over centuries.
>
> I can understand the idea of Indo European culture
> spreading as an
> agricultural revolution - More productive
> technologies allow for larger
> populations who soon outnumber indigenous hunter
> gatherer societies. And
> certainly that must have happened. If that happened
> one can certainly
> assume that the smaller numbers of surviving
> indigenous peoples would
> contribute relatively less to the genetic pool and
> would tend to be swamped
> by the immigrants. However, there is the
> alternative process of indigenous
> peoples adopting technology and culture in advance
> of a wave of migration.
> The larger the disparity im material culture the
> larger the likelihood of
> the former occuring (eg the North American Continent
> in the 15th to 19th
> centuries where in addition to disease and hostle
> policy, the sheer number
> of immegrants able to live in dense communities
> overcame and almost
> destroyed the North American indigenous peoples). I
> hae heard that the Indo
> Europeans had innovations in agriculture and they
> came from an area that in
> the pre BCE millenia was also very innovative in
> other technologies (for
> example metallurgy). However, if the invasion or
> advent was some time
> around 2000 BCE there is evidence of extensive trade
> and agricuture at least
> on a scale to support public projects like
> stonehenge and the menhirs of
> Western Europe. The continuing genetic diversity of
> peoples in Europe (just
> in the difference in appearance from region to
> region alone) strongly
> suggests that any homogenizing effect of an Indo
> European population
> expansion/migration was very limited. It is
> probably unfair for me to make
> any conclusion without reading Renfrew but there has
> been a tendency in
> historical circles over some centuries to view the
> change in language and
> culture in a region as evidence that its indigenous
> people were destroyed
> and replaced. Modern historical work suggests much
> more continuity and
> adaptability at least in the periods we can see some
> evidence for.
>
> My comment vis a vis the warrior class should
> properly refer to the late
> pre-historic and early hsitoric periods. If one
> were to look at the Vandal
> or Lombard Kingdoms in Germania during the empire or
> the Atrebates in Belgae
> before the Empire one would find farmers and others
> working the land led by
> freemen or a warrior caste. When these poeples
> migrated it was largely the
> warrior and leadership caste that moved (though when
> they settled many of
> them doubtless took up agriculture as a mean of
> survival.) It would almost
> certainly be impractical in such migrations to
> uproot the entire farming
> class of a country and take them on long journeys of
> the sort these tribes
> engaged in. One historian (Crawford) has suggested
> the extreme of this for
> the Anglo Saxon Invasion of England - only a few
> thousand hired soldiers
> called in by Romans and later the British elites
> after the departure of the
> Roman Administration established viable communities
> (presumably by mixing
> with the local population) and after a period of
> time began to exert
> political control and ultimately cultural dominance.
>
> I have just seen a paper on the internet regarding
> this by Mr. Weale (
>
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-MBE-02-AS.pdf
> ). I have not read
> the whole of it but he makes two interesting points
> at the outset -
>
> With regard to the findings by a study by Wilson et
> al (2001) he found
> "evidence for Celtic male ancestry in the North
> Welsh and/or both Celtic and
> Scandinavian ancestry in the male (Viking) ancestry
> in the modern Orcadian
> population. Further comparisons of these data with
> Basque data suggested
> that the male Celtic genetic component was
> Paleolithic in origin and
> therefore that subsequent culturan transitions in
> North Wales were not
> associated with substantial incoming (male) gene
> flow." The paper
> associates such cultural transitions with "the elite
> dominance model of
> Renfrew 1987" which posits the adoption of new
> cultures could occur through
> trade or the introduction of a small ruling elite
> with little or no impact
> on the gene pool." (Weale's paper in contracdiction
> to Crawford's study
> ssuggests that at least in the midlants there was
> substantial male migration
> of Anglos Saxons from the continent-sometimes it is
> one way and sometimes
> another. I think in fairness to Crawford he was
> talking about the initial
> invasions)
>
> I will close by saying I think there may be a
> problem in the correlations of
> the definitions of the terms "Indo European" and/or
> "Celtic." among the
> specialists. Are these races or peoples or are they
> in fact cultures shared
> by a wide diversity of genetic populations. The
> answer as is usual in these
> situations is probably a combination. However, when
> Wilson says the "Celts"
> are Paleolithic I think from a racial or genetic
> standpoint by "Celt" he
> means a pre Roman inhabitant of Britain whereas the
> term "Celtic" is more
> widely understood I think to refer to a culture or
> set of cultures
> originating in central Europe in early in the last
> millenium BCE and
> spreading acros Europe over the succeeding
> centuries. In that sense I do
> not think his use of the word "Celt" impies an Indo
> European in a genetic or
> racial sense even though (I must agree) it seems
> well established Welsh is a
> language of the Indo European family.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Grady Loy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden? [Was:
> Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> >
> > Dear Grady,
> >
> > One of the alternative views of the indo-european
> > expansion over Europe (sponsored by Colin Renfrew)
> is
> > that of the agricultural expansion. No warrior
> class
> > dominating a peaceful population in this picture.
> >
> > Best, fa
> >
> > --- Grady Loy <> escreveu:
> >
> > Dear Phil:
>
=== message truncated ===

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