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Archiver > GEN-ANCIENT > 2004-04 > 1082567823


From: "Carolyn Clark Campbell" <>
Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden? [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:17:03 +0500
In-Reply-To: <20040421133516.89089.qmail@web41704.mail.yahoo.com>


Dear Cisco,

Thank you for your message. I don't think anyone is disputing the
existence of the Indo-European language group. I simply reported on a
challenge to the conclusion that the Celtic languages fit within that
group. Again, of course, it's not my challenge. Being of Celtic
background (but obviously using an Indo-European language myself), and
living in the Caucasus, I'm curious about our origins, but not attached
to one conclusion as opposed to another.

Best regards,
Carolyn

Carolyn Clark Campbell

-----Original Message-----
From: Francisco Antonio Doria
[mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:35 PM
To:
Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus - Garden of Eden?
[Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]


Dear Carolyn,

The Italo-Keltic theory (or hypothesis) has been
around for some 250 years, since the famos speech by
Sir William Jones. The name indo-european is due,
iirr, to Thomas Young, c. 1810. Then you have
Schlegel, Schleicher (who wrote the notorious `avis
akvasas ka' fable, now `ouis ekwosque', cf. ouis
equusque in Latin), Rask, then Saussure, in 1878, with
his _Mémoire..._

OK, one may all of a sudden discredit it, but many
quite reliable people have accepted it (I know this is
no argument).

May I suggest a litmus test? The one I mentioned on
the Georgian language (of which, as I said, I know
nothing).

The numerals, personal pronouns, mother, father, son &
daughter [so typical: thugáter, in Greek, for
example], water, ox, pig, ...

Test them for the early Keltic languages, and then for
Latin. I'm not referring to sophisticated traces like
medio-passive voice in -ri and so on.

Best, chico

PS: Scientific theories are something quite easy to
discredit; they are very fragile. This is their main
characteristic: they can be disproved by new evidence.
You cannot twist them to fit contradictory data. The
indo-european hypothesis, fully stated, is quite
complex, and beyond the pale of this forum. But we can
approach it from some simple examples. When Hrozny
translated Hittite, he found a sentence:

nun NINDA-an ezzateni, vadar-ma ekkuteni

NINDA is a Semitic word for bread. Nun, cf. nun in
German: now. Ezzateni, `you should eat,' cf. German
essen; vadar-ma, flexioned form for water. Ekkuteni,
from a Semitic root with i.-e. flexion: drink.

It is clamorously indo-european!

--- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
escreveu: > Well, it's not my theory so I've no need
to defend
> it -- and I couldn't
> if I wanted to -- but I'll be interested to see the
> published works (on
> DNA and language -- which of course don't
> necessarily depend upon each
> other for validity).
>
> I've seen so many "proven" theories fall by the
> wayside in my lifetime
> that I wouldn't be surprised one way or the other.
> Re-examination is
> always healthy even if it leads to re-confirmation
> of existing points of
> view.
>
> Carolyn
>
> Carolyn Clark Campbell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francisco Antonio Doria
> [mailto:]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 1:09 AM
> To:
> Subject: RE: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus -
> Garden of Eden?
> [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
>
>
> Dear Carolyn, dear Phil,
>
> That's simply unbelievable. The Celtic languages are
> *blatantly* indo-european. They are centum
> languages,
> with the passive voice in -ri, and lots of common
> i.-e. words such as -rix, cf. rex in Latin. In fact,
> there is a Celto-Italic subgroup.
>
> Sorry, friends ;-)) This flies to the face of
> evidence...
>
> All the best, chico
>
> --- Carolyn Clark Campbell <>
> escreveu: > Dear Phil,
> >
> > This is very interesting indeed! This is also the
> > argument of my friend
> > who's studying the linguistic connection between
> the
> > small remaining
> > group in Georgia that he's been working with and
> the
> > Celts -- that in
> > fact the Celtic languages are actually
> > non-Indo-European. He believes
> > that early "proof" that Gaelic was Indo-European
> was
> > a
> > "politically-correct" decision, rather than a
> > scientific one, because
> > this was during the era when to say one was
> > non-Indo-European meant that
> > one was not "Aryan" -- perhaps one was even
> Semitic
> > -- and the Celts
> > were not about to submit to a theory that saw them
> > as perhaps more
> > primitive -- less "advanced" than the other
> "races"
> > in Europe. This
> > point of view is no longer a political necessity,
> so
> > it's possible to
> > look at the issue more dispassionately now and
> > re-examine the evidence.
> > I have no idea if my friend is right or not, but
> > it's an interesting
> > theory, and one needs to challenge "conventional
> > wisdom" once in a
> > while. Anyway, I'm hoping he'll soon get this all
> > written up and
> > published.
> >
> > Carolyn Clark Campbell
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Phil Moody [mailto:]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:10 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus
> -
> > Garden of Eden?
> > [Was: Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> > Dear Chico:
> >
> > I was not suggesting that the Basque are not Non
> > Indo-European, but
> > rather
> > that the Celts are also a Non Indo-European
> Culture
> > - based upon their
> > Common
> > Paternal Origins. This would be a very ancient
> > Paternal Connection - say
> > during the Paleolithic era - allowing for a vast
> > amount of time for the
> > once
> > Common Language to become unrecognizable with the
> > other. So, where the
> > Basque
> > culture remained relatively isolated - the Celts
> > were more adventurous
> > and
> > became warriors and Craftsman. The Celts
> interacted
> > with all the
> > Indo-European
> > Cultures it came into contact with, and traded
> > durable goods; so there
> > was a
> > greater need for the Celts to Communicate with
> these
> > other Cultures
> > (Languages), and this Linguistic Interaction over
> > thousands of years
> > accelerated the rate of change in the Celtic
> > Language; whereas the
> > Basque
> > language was stagnant by comparison. Thus, we have
> > two cultures with a
> > common
> > genetic origin, and yet their Languages are now
> > unrecognizable as having
> > a
> > common origin. Genetically - the Celts are Non
> > Indo-European Paternally
> > - at
> > any rate - this is how I interpret the Wilson, et
> al
> > Y DNA results.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
> > <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 2:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Gen-Ancient] Georgia & the Caucasus
> -
> > Garden of Eden?
> > [Was:
> > Edessa, Judea, and Armenia]
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Phil,
> > >
> > > I have Cavalli-Sforza here, _Genes, Peoples and
> > > Languages_, U of California Press, 2000. The
> > Basque
> > > genetic background is the 5th principal
> component
> > (in
> > > genetic distribution) in Europe. The i.-e.
> > components
> > > are the 1st, 3rd and 4th. So, they are
> different.
> > >
> > > fa
> > >
> > > --- Phil Moody <> escreveu: >
> > Dear
> > > Chico:
> > > >
> > > > > I'll go back to Cavalli-Sforza, because his
> > > > gene-wave
> > > > > analysis, as far as I can recall, doesn't
> > > > contradict
> > > > > the usual ideas on the population of Europe.
> > In
> > > > > particular, the indo-european spread by
> > farming,
> > > > as
> > > > > proposed by Colin Renfrew since about 10 000
> > > > b.C.E.,
> > > > > is confirmed by Cavalli-Sforza's analysis.
> > > >
> > > > PLM: There appears to be a paradox in
> > Cavalli-Sforza
> > > > conclusions then; because
> > > > his genetic testing suggests a relationship
> > between
> > > > the Basque and Celtic
> > > > populations, and I see no rational explanation
> > for
> > > > this conundrum. One cannot
>
=== message truncated ===

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