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Archiver > GEN-DE > 1996-11 > 0848031514-01


From: "W. Fred Rump" <>
Subject: Re: Silesia and Sudetenland
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 04:18:34 GMT


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(Jerzy Pankiewicz) wrote:

>: Nonsense. One third of Germany was occupied the same way and the rest
>: had been reduced to rubble.
>One sees that a glas is partially filled, one sees that it is
>partially empty. Two thirds of Germany became a super-power.
>The rest has been reconstructed.

And it should be noted that the part under a much more stringent
Communist or Stalinist control was still at the front of the entire
'socialist' world as far as productivity and living standard went.
Others will day that is because West Germany funded them. Well, the
USSR funded lots of other places like Cuba too. It still takes the
will of a nation to succeed against all odds. Let's just say that
German superpower status was earned by German labor and
industriousness and leave it at that.

>: the Reich. I have seen no figures of "millions" of Poles being moved,
>: expelled or whatever under German rule. Some references please.
>700 000 - 1 000 000 expelled from annexed lands in 1939/1940,
Eveb if that is factual and I don't have the numbers, it is not quite
the millions you claimed, right?

>3 000 000 of Polish Jews expelled before being killed,
And now Polish Jews so willingly turned over to the camps are good
Polish citizens, right? Let's remember that they were Jews first of
all and their fate was earned because they happened to be Polish. It
is a sad chapter that will live forever in the history of the world
but it is not a chapter which can be claimed as Polish persecution or
expulsion - the same thing happened in Germany too.

>expelled Warsaw people in 1944, expelled Zamosc region people,
>forced labour workers. Shall I continue?

The Warsaw Ghetto was another Polish situation? Did anybody in Poland
stand up to help them? Forced labor and Arbeitsdienst was dreadful but
it was not the same as mass expulsion. These people could return home
if they so chose. Many, many didn't. I met quite a few Arbeiter in
Poland who worked in Germany during the war. Everyone regretted not
staying there. Many had family members who did stay and are now
successful in one way or another in Germany and the complaint was that
these new rich people aren't too interested in helping their relatives
in Poland today. I know my meeting a few people means little but the
story may be repeat itself many times.

>: Sooner or later Poland will come to grips with history all on its own.
>Fred, aren'y you a puppy? I do quite well with my history
>but you don't.

Keep dreaming. Maybe everything you believe will come true someday. In
the meantime we can use facts we know.

>Polish Chelmno on the Ner river was renamed to Kulmhof, but
>the name Kulm was also used. It's not the Kulm
>in West Prussia.

Well, the one in West Prussia is the only one I know of. You're saying
that the Poles never heard of Kulm which must mean it was known as
such by the Germans. Can you tell me where?

>: whom names had to be manufactured after 1945. Strangely enough there
>: are still references to Koenigsberg in Polish.
>You are right - the Polish name is Krolewiec, but many
>Poles are snobs, they prefer 'Koenigsberg', 'hot-dog' and 'shop'.

I know. When I went to look for Koenigsberger Strasse in Elblag, it
had been changed to Krolewiec but that was "IN" Poland. Outside of the
country they were not as fussy about changing names and some Polish
Atlases still show Koenigsberg across the border.

>: The concept of citizenship hadn't even been invented yet which goes
>: right back to the point of Polish claims to territory because of the a
>: liege relationship to the Polish King.
>The more the concept of German nationality hadn't even been invented yet.

Precisely. What did exist on both the German and Polish side was an
ethnic and linguistic belonging to a larger group. Since there was no
Germany but only a Holy Roman Empire, it was kind of difficult to
become a German nationalist. That type of feeling did not arrive in
German culture until the French tried to make the various German
principalities a part of the French Empire. Slowly the idea of German
nationhood started to creep in. In 1871, many years after the birth of
Poland, a united Germany finally came to be. By this time the Poles
centuries of time to develop their own brand of nationalism and
territorial aggrandizement. Sadly their government was so screwed up
that all their neighbors could easily take advantage of them in the
last few years of the 18th century.

>
>: countries really didn't. There one was simply a subject. It is often
>: forgotten that it was the cities who founded democracy when they
>: elected their own leaders.
>Exactly. So what are talking about?

History my man, history. Read a few books some time about the
development of the medieval city in a time of absolute power of the
autocratic state. Find out why there such places as Freie Reichstaedte
and Hanseatic towns which ruled themselves. Find out why Luebeck,
Hamburg, Danzig and Bremen were not really part of anything
except.themselves until very late in their history. Hamburg and Breman
are the only places which still are independent states but today at
least belong to a united Germany.

The German cities which used to be in Poland ruled themselves onder
their own law as free Buergers. They would pay a tax to the king but
that was mainly to keep him out of their hair.

Fred
W. Fred Rump
26 Warren St.
Beverly, NJ
609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fre

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