Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1995-06 > 0804318976

From: Todd A. Farmerie< >
Date: 28 Jun 1995 05:56:16 GMT

In a previous article, (Ulf Larsson) says:

> (Tom Camfield) wrote:

>>--Sigurd Ring
>>--Ragnar Lothbroc
>>--Ingvar (d. 872)
>>--Rollo (d. 931)

This line appears to be mixed up significantly.

Ingvar (Ivar)

is the traditional line. It looks like Tom's source has flipped Ingvar and
Rognevald (which mutated to Ragnar) to tie Rollo in to Lothbroc.

>Interesting, Ingvar ("Hyngvar") is mentioned in the Angllo-Saxon Chronicle as
>one of the sons of Ragnar Lodbrok (as well as "Hubbe" and "Haelfdan") .

I will have to check my copy again, but I think that Ingvar is named, but
not specifically as son of Ragnar. In addition, I have seen debate as to
whether Ingvar was really brother of Hubbe and Haelfdan (the debate seemed
to revolve around the placement of a comma in the ASC text). The argument
also involves Ivar, King of Dublin, and ancestor of the ruling families of
there and York. He is also identified with the calcium deficient one, as
well as the ASC viking. Here though, some Irish sources call this Ivar a
brother of Olaf, who in turn has been identified (believe it or not) with
Olaf Gerstedalf of Norway, son of Gudred.

>The Swedish author, Aake Ohlmarks, thinks that this "Invar" is the
> "Ivar the boneless" of the sagas. Ohlmarks is regarded
>as a very speculative person by historians, but even modern historians seems to
>accept Ragnar Lodbrok as a historic person. He is then (one of) the leaders of
>large viking army attaching France and England (ca. 845 - 867 ). The saga
>Ragnar Lodbrok is however a heroic or (myth-) saga with little connection to

There are three schools of thought here:
1) Ragnar existed and was father of Ivar the Boneless/Ivar of York/Ivar of
2) Ragnar existed, but the Ivar of the ASC and Dublin is not identical with
Ivar the Boneless, son of Ragnar
3) Ragnar did not exist (as such), but represents a mythical combination of
several kings and vikings with similar sounding names

>But isn't it remarkable that Rollo could be the son of "Ivar the boneless"!

I have seen no source which says this.

>If we accept that Ingvar, Ubbe and Halfdan were the sons of the historic Ragnar
>it would be in line with the tradition that his firstborn son (Halfdan) was
>given the same name
>as his paternal grandfather.

Ragnar's father was not named Halfdan, but Sigurd (according to traditional
sources), and had a son Sigurd. The pattern holds, but not with Halfdan.

>It is harder to accept "Sigurd Ring" as a historic person. The above mentioned
>Ohlmarks is
>the only, not counting Snorri, person that I have found claiming so!

There are others.


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