GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: Nietzsche <>
Subject: Re: HELP: Who was John de Courci ???
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 22:13:20 -0800

I have some good stuff on John. Can't find it all at the moment.
There are museums & associations dedicated to his legacy etc. (Down
County Museum, House of De Courcy, High Fashion, & the De Courcy
Arms, Church St., Downpatrick, as well as the many structures he
built)

THE CONQUEST OF IRELAND
from Historical Works by Giraldus Cambrensis Revised & Edited by
Thomas Wright, London, 1863
CHAPTER XVI.
DESCRIPTION OF FITZ-ALDELM.
This Fitz-Aldelm [Footnote: William Fitz-Aldelm was son of Aldelm,
or Adelm, and younger brother of Hubert de Burgh, earl of Kent,
and justiciary in the time of Henry III., one of the most powerful
subjects in England. The Clanricards are descended from William
Fitz-Aldelm, the founder of the Irish branch of this family.] was
large and corpulent both in stature and shape, but of a reasonable
height. He was a pleasant and courtly man, but whatever honors he
paid to any one were always mingled with guile. There was no end
of his craftiness; there was poison in the honey, and a snake in
the grass. To outward appearance he was liberal and courteous, but
within there was more aloes than honey. He always "Pelliculam
veterem retinens, vir fronte politus, Asturam rapido portans sub
pectore vulpem." [Footnote: Perscus, Sat. v. 116-118]
Beneath the outward guise of gentle bearing, Concealed the fox's
hateful guile within." Always, Impia sub dulci melle venena
ferens." "Foul poison in the honeyed potion lurks." His words
were smoother than oil, and yet were they very swords. Those he
honored one day, the next he plundered or calumniated. A braggart
against the defenceless, a flatterer of the rebellious, he
succumbed to the powerful, and lorded over the humble; gentle to
his enemies and severe to those who submitted, he neither struck
terror into the one, nor kept faith with the other. He was a man
full of guile, bland and deceitful, and much given to wine and
women. Covetous of money and ambitious of court favor, he tried to
advance himself both ways. The Invasion of Ulster John de Courcy,
perceiving that Fitz-Aldelm was covetous, crafty and timid in all
his dealings, and considering that he was neither feared by the
enemy nor trusted by his subjects, drew round him some of the
garrison of Dublin, who were much dispirited for want of their
regular pay and allowances, and the supplies they were used to
obtain in cattle and provisions by inroads on the enemy. The band
selected by Courcy was small in numbers, but full of courage and
spirit; and the brave knight, with only twenty-two men-at-arms and
about three hundred others, boldly ventured on an expedition into
Ulster, a part of the island where the English had not yet
appeared in arms. Then the prophecy attributed to the Caledonian
Merlin (for I do not vouch its authenticity) seemed to receive its
fulfillment: - "a white knight, sitting on a white horse, and
having birds on his shield, shall be the first to enter the
province of Ulster with force of arms." For John de Courcy was of
a fair complexion, and chanced at this time to ride a white horse,
and he bore on his shield the blazon of three birds. [Footnote:
The arms of the Courcys were: Argent, three griphs or geires
gules, crowned on. The family took their name from a castle on the
little river Dive in Normandy; and Richard d Courcy, who came in
with William the Conqueror, received grants of lands in England.
This John de Courcy, the first invader of the North of Ireland,
was made earl of Ulster by Henry II., the first Irish earldom
created.] After three days' march through the country of Uziele
(Orgial), on the morning of the fourth day, being about the
calends (the 1st) of February, he entered the city of Down without
opposition, unexpected either as a guest or an enemy; and Dunlevus
[Roderic mac Dulevy, king of Ulster], the king of that country,
was so taken by surprise that he made a hasty flight. There
Courcy's troops, who had been before in great need and half
starved, were refreshed with the plunder and booty they took.
It happened at this very time that Vivanus, a legate of the see of
Rome, was staying in the city, having crossed the sea from
Scotland. This prelate took much pains to effect a treaty between
the king and John de Courcy, and so induce the English to leave
those parts and return to their own territories, in consideration
of a tribute to be yearly paid them; but although he exerted all
his powers of persuasion, his mediation was of no effect.
Dunlevus, finding that words were of no avail, assembled his
forces from all quarters and within eight days, and boldly marched
against his enemies within the city at the head of ten thousand
warriors. For in this island, as in other countries, the
inhabitants of the northern parts are more warlike and truculent
than the rest. Thus the poet says: "Omnis in arctois sanguis
quienque pxxxx Nascitur, indomitus bellis, et mortis amator."
"The blood that's nurtured in the northern frosts, Despises death,
and yields not in the fight." John de Courcy seeing the enemy's
force approaching the city with great impetuosity, thought it far
best to sally forth and meet them, as his own troops, though few
in number, were full of courage, and thus try the fortune of
battle, rather than be shut up in a weak fort which he had
constructed of slight materials in one corner of the city, where
he might be exposed to a long siege and be reduced by famine.
Battle was therefore joined with great fury, arrows and darts
being showered thickly from a distance at the first onset; then
spears met spears, and swords and battle-axes crossed, and many
fell on both sides. In this terrible conflict, "Tam clypeo
clypeus, umbone repellitur umbo, Ense minax ensis, pede pes, et
cuspide cuspis." He who had seen how John de Courcy wielded his
sword, with one stroke lopping off heads, with another arms, must
needs have commended him for a most valiant soldier. Many others
distinguished themselves by their bravery in this battle, among
whom was Roger le Poer, [Footnote: Giraldus does not inform us how
this young man was related to Robert le Poer, the founder of this
distinguished Irish family, who is noticed elsewhere in this
History.] a beardless youth, fair and tall, who was second in the
glorious list of warriors here, and afterwards gained great honour
in the country around Leighlin, and also in Ossory. The battle was
severely fought, and the issue for a long time doubtful, the odds
in numbers being so great; but at length John de Courcy's
obstinate valour secured the victory, and great multitudes of the
Irish were slain as they were making their escape by the
sea-shore. Then was fulfilled, as they say, the prophecy of
Columba, the Irishman, who in times long past foretold this
battle: "So much Irish blood," he said, "shall then be shed,
that their enemies, in pursuing them, will wade up to their knees
in blood." For the fugitives sank with their own weight in the
quick-sands on the shore, so that their pursuers were easily
plunged up to their knees in the blood which floated on the
surface. It is also reported that a prediction was committed to
writing by the same prophet, purporting that a needy and broken
man, a stranger from far countries, should, with a small company,
come to Down, and take possession of the city without the leave of
the governor. He also foretold several battles and other events,
all which were clearly fulfilled in the acts of John de Courcy;
who is said to have had this book of prophecies, written in the
Irish tongue, in his possession, and to have valued it much,
considering it as the mirror of his own deeds. It is also written
in the same book, that a young man, with a band of armed men,
should assault and break down the walls of Waterford, and take the
city with great slaughter of the inhabitants; and that he should
then pass through Wexford, and at length enter Dublin, without any
opposition. All this was evidently fulfilled in earl Richard. The
saint also predicted that Limerick would be twice evacuated by the
English, but the third time they would retain possession of it.
Now, truly it has twice been given up, once, as we have before
related, and the second time by Philip de Braose, who, having the
city of Limerick granted to him, came as far as the river which
washes its walls, for the purpose of taking possession, but no
efforts or taunts could prevail with him not to relinquish his
enterprise; as we shall more fully relate in the proper place. And
as we find in the prophecy, that, when the attempt should be made
for the third time, possession of the city should be retained,
this happened long afterwards, when Hamon de Valaignes was
justiciary; for then the place was treacherously laid in ruins,
but was afterwards recovered and rebuilt by Meyler. As to John de
Courcy, he gained the victory in two great battles at Down, one of
which was fought after the feast of the Purification, (2nd
February,) and the other about the [eighth of the] calends of
July, the feast of the Nativity of St. John, [24th June], when,
with a very small force, he defeated fifteen thousand men, putting
great numbers of then to the sword. He had a third engagement at
Ferly, where he was overtaken in a narrow pass, while, with a
small party, he was carrying off a herd of cattle, but being beset
by the enemy, his party were compelled to retire, after several
desperate charges, and so many of them perished, or dispersed
themselves in the woods, that only eleven of his men-at-arms were
left to stand by him. However, with undaunted courage, he and his
small band made good their retreat for thirty miles, having
continually to defend themselves against the enemy who pursued
them. They lost their horses, and after travelling on foot two
days and two nights, encumbered with their armour, and without
tasting food, at length, by wonderful efforts, reached his castle
in safety. His fourth battle was fought at Uriel, where he lost
many of his people, and the rest were put to flight. The fifth
battle was fought at the bridge of Ivor, after his return from
England; and in this he came off victorious. Thus he gained the
victory in three engagements, and was unsuccessful in two
skirmishes, in which, however, the enemy's losses were far greater
than his own.
CHAPTER XVII.
THE DESCRIPTION OF JOHN DE COURCY
In person John de Courcy was of a fair complexion, and tall, with
bony and muscular limbs, of large size, and very strongly made,
being very powerful, of singular daring, and a bold and brave
soldier from his youth. Such was his ardour to mingle in the
fight, that even when he had the command, he was apt to forget his
duties as such, and exhibiting the virtues of a private soldier,
instead of a general, and impetuously charge the enemy among the
foremost ranks; so that if his troops wavered he might have lost
the victory by being too eager to win it. But although he was thus
impetuous in war, and was more a soldier than a general, in times
of peace he was sober and modest, and, paying due reverence to the
church of Christ, was exemplary in his devotions and in attending
holy worship; nor did he forget in his successes to offer
thanksgivings, and ascribe all to the Divine mercy, giving God all
the glory as often as he had achieved anything glorious. But, as
Tully says, "Nature never made anything absolutely perfect in all
points," so we find in him an excessive parsimony and
inconstancy, which cast a shade over his other virtues. He married
a daughter of Godred king of Man; and after the many conflicts of
a long war, and severe struggles on every side, being raised by
his victories to the summit of power, he erected castles
throughout Ulster in suitable places, and settled the whole
country in peace and good order, the fruits of his many toils,
privations and perils. One thing, however, is very remarkable, and
I cannot forbear mentioning it, that four of the main pillars of
the English power in the conquest of Ireland, namely,
Fitz-Stephen, Hervey, Raymond, and John de Courcy, by some
mysterious though doubtless just, dispensation of Providence, had
no lawful issue by their wives. I might add to these a fifth,
Meyler, who, although he be married, has yet no child by his wife.
Having said this much briefly, and by way of episode, concerning
John de Courcy, I leave his great deeds to be more fully related
by future historians, and now return to Dublin.]
[Garlands note: I have many sources that state he breed like crazy
with many woman. It seems that to have the great conquerors child
was an in thing.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I copied this out of an Encyclopedia 1994 Britanica
3:683 1a pg. 683
Courci, John de (d.sept 1219?)[garland note: born 1152],
Anglo-Norman conqueror of Ulster (or Princeps Ulidae), who was a
member of the celebrated Norman family of Oxfordshire & Somerset.
Sent to Ireland with William FitzAldelm by HenryII in 1176, he
immediately led an expedition from Dublin to Ulster and in 1177
seized its capitol, Down (now Downpatrick). He subsequently
gained effective control of eastern Ulster, & his firm rule there
was responsible for the early prosperity of the area. John de
Courci had a perennial feud with the de Lacys, another
Anglo-Norman family adventuring in Ireland, & the younger Hugh de
Lacy (later 1st earl of Ulster) took & held him prisoner for a
short while in 1204. De Courci, with his brother-in-law,
Reginald, King of Man (the Isle of Man), laid seige to the castle
Rath (possibly Dundrum) but was routed by Hugh's elder brother,
Walter de Lacy, Lord of Meath. He disappeared until 1207, when he
received permission to return to England. He accompanied King John
to Ireland in 1210 & seems thereafter to have retained favour.
Both John de Courci & his wife, Affreca, were benefactors of the
church & founded monasteries in Ulster. John replaced the secular
canons of Down priory with Benedictine monks from St. Werburgh's
abbey, Chester. [Garland note: He was a big builder & built many
Cathedrals & castles]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
29:133:1b pg.133

Gaeli Irish & Anglo-Norman (c.600-c.1300). The postmythic history
of Ulster dates from the 7th century, when it begins to be
available from Latin documents & chronicles created by churchmen.
By this time the 100 or more Tuatha (clans) of the island had
loosely grouped themselves into the five provinces of Ulster
(Ulaid), Meath (Midhe, ehick later dissolved), Leinster (Laigin),
Munster (Muma), & Connaught (Connacht). By the 8th century Ulster
was dominated by a dynasty called the Ui Neill (O'Neill), which
claimed descent from a shadowy figure of the 5th Century known as
Niall of the Nine Hostages. Divided into a northern & southern
branch, the Ui Neill asserted hegemony as high kings, to whom all
other Irish kings owed deference. In the early 11th century the
king of Munster, Brian Boru, effectively challenged the high Kings
of the Ui Neill dynasty, thereby ending Ulster's political
dominance on early Irish history. The dominance of Munster was
short-lived. In the mid 12th century an incursion of Norman
adventures form England, South Wales, & the Continent greatly
complicated the island's political pattern. The Norman beachhead
was in Waterford, but from there thy struck out both North & West.
By 1177 a force of several hundred men under John de Courci,
advancing north from Dublin, had established itself in northern
County Down and southern Antrim. They built formidable castles at
Downpatrick & Carrickfergus & established the northeast coast as
the heart of Norman Ulster. De Courci became so threateningly
independent that the English King, John Plantagenet, created an
earldom of Ulster in 1205 & conferred it upon the more submissive
Hugh de Lacy. The title passed to the Norman family of de Burgo,
which was joined in the coastal sections of Down & Antrium in the
later 13th century by Anglo-Norman families with names such as
Mandeville, Savage, Logan, & Bisset. The hinterland of Ulster
remained imperviously Gaelic, (for the subsequent fortunes of the
Norman colony & the resurgence of Gaelic society in the 14th &
15th centuries, see Ireland:History: First centuries of English
rule [c.1166-c.1600].)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I also have strange excepts from a book "Sons of the Conquerors"
by Leslie G. Pine, Barrister-at-Law, Inner Temple, London.
Published by Charles E. Tuttle Co., Tokyo 1973 (this is all I
have, this is the format I received it)

This book explores the genealogies of descendants (primarily in the
U.K.) of the Norman Conquerors.

The author references what he terms "a very exact & important
work": The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families, Lewis C. Loyd
(Harleian Society 1951), which discusses 315 families in detail.

Page 244: U.S. Descendants - "The name William Henry de Courcy
Wright inshrines the memory of a descent from the de Courcys."

Page 1190-20 - "The Courcys derive from Courcy in Calvados.
Connected with this family is the story of the famous or infamous
head of the family, the Lord Kingsale, is supposed to have the
right to wear a hat in the sovereigns presence."

[garlands comment: the family also had many other residences &
branches besides the Calvados area family, like Coucy etc.. And
family in Scotland, Germany, England, France, & Norway. As I have
read it in many places, it is The Conqueror John de Courcy who won
that right for his decedents (son Miles the 1st Lord Kingsale & the
decedents) to be in the presence of the monarch & not remove hat]

"The famous John de Courcy who conquered the province in Ulster
for the English crown in the reign of Henry II was not the
ancestor of the Lords Kingsale. He can from the Norman Lords of
Courcy in Somerset, that is Stoke Courcy, or Stogursey, rendered
famous by Bernard Shaw's little priest in "St. Joan", but neither
John de Courcy or the Courcys of Stoke are connected with Irish
Peers. [Garlands note: I have in my possession "St. Joan" by Shaw &
"The First Biography of Joan of Arc" Translated & annotated by
Daniel Rankin & Clair Quintal. In these books the over zealous
priest is Thomas Courcelles (the one who altered the original french
documents while translating to Latin). I have seen before the many
links of relatives changing there name as to protect the family
since there were major French/Norman & English branches. Also
because the family line has had the privilege of having quite a few
excommunications, though some were reinstated. There are many
references to this but the 2 I have in my possession are "A Distant
Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman & the various writings of Abbot Guibert
of Nogent from the early 1100's)

[Garlands note: Richard it the famous de Courcy that came over
with William the C, as well as many other relatives (Like Aubri de
Couci, of the Coucy branch; David De Courcy; Roger de Courcelles) &
placed the Courcy households on English soil. I have gotten a hold
of the list from a plaque on the wall of the church at
Dives-sur-Mer, Normandy, France, where William the C & his
knights said mass before setting sail to invade England. Thought
I do want to get ahold of something called the Abby Roll. Also I
read somewhere long ago that Richard was depicted in the Bayeau
(sp) tapestry. I would like to research this further. Richard set
claim to many baronies & made lots babies with lots of women (they
all seem to be rouges, way to go! :). Somerset shire, Stoke,
Nunham - Courtenay - Neuham, Oxford & others were his domain (I
need to get the Doomsday book, it states much more detail). John
was also made Lord of Connaught. John certainly had decedents in
Ireland. To say so is silly. I have seen to many links & charts
showing different.]

Page 198 - "Another place in the west country, Stoke Courcy in
Somerset, is named after the Norman Lords of Courcy who settled
there. The great antiquarian scholar, Sir Henry Maxwell Lyte,
proved the John de Courcy, the conqueror of Ulster in the reign of
Henry II, was also a junior member of the Somersetshire house. No
one has proved the connection of the Courcys, Lords Kingsale, with
the Stoke Courcy family, or with John de Courcy for that Matter,
as he left only illegitimate children. It can be shown that in
1221 Patrick de Courcy is mentioned as one of the Nobel of Ireland
& there is no reason to suppose that he was not a member of the
Family in England, though no proof can be obtained for this."

[Garland note: I have in my possession a copy of a letter my grandmother
received February 22, 1991, just after her last visit to Europe. It is from
Brian A. Harrison, Yeoman Warder & Honorary Archivist for the Tower of
London. The letter is to apologize for there not being able to get together
since he was away on holiday. It further goes into some description of the
stay of Sir John de Courcy in the Tower of London. The records of
this visit are at the Tower & also noted many times in the records of Henry II,
King John & King Henry III, since they often had to do official thing with him
in one matter or another. The letter goes on to state how unde
r King Henry II, John was well regarded & Lord of all the Newly taken
territories of Ireland, Ulster, Connaught etc.. Then under King John, Sir John
de Courcy was seen as a threat to the crown & was placed in a sentence o
f "Perpetual Imprisonment" A year later during a major dispute over the Duchy
of Normany (France & England both claimed it), it was resolved that the matter
would be settled by a trial by combat. (the details are in the s
tories above & below) Needless to say Sir John de Courcys legend was wide
spread & the french ran away. John was the Victor for England & made it a Part
on England (funny because he had many relatives there, but hey the
life of a Viking at heart) The King John was so delighted that he ordered Sir
John de Courcys immediate release & asked Sir John de Courcy to name any claim
he desired... anything. De Courcy asked for & was granted for
himself & his heirs the privilege to remain covered 9i.e. keep their hats on)
in the presence of the monarch. To assist de Courcy with his return to his
lands, King John himself traveled with de Courcy back to Ireland, t
o show his subjects de Courcys honor & privilege. This Privilege is still held
by the Baron Kingsale]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Gayle Wilson <>

I have some early stuff. One thing that I can tell you is that
your Baudry was also called Baldric the German, or Baudri
Baucquenci. He married the niece of Gislebert, count
Brionne...who was a nephew of Richard Duke of Normandy.
This in itself may be where your source came by his/her info. His
son, by the same name, was an archer for William the Conqueror &
is mentioned by Oderic Vitalis in book I on pages 392, 397, 426,
427, & 428. This Baudri had the following siblings: Nicholas
Baskerville; Fulk Aunon; ROBERT COURCY; Richard Neufville (aka
Neville); Viger Apulia; Elizabeth, who married Fulk Bonneval; & at
least three other sisters. Naturally, there could be more; these
are just who I've found so far.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Royal Ancestry of the Magna Carta Barons" by Carr. P. Collins.
Jr. (I don't have the book yet, this is what was typed & sent to
me)

Robert, Lord of Courcy in Normandy, Baron of Stoke-Courcy &
Steward of the Household of Henry I, King of England, Married one
of six daughters. (one would assume because of the nature of that
title that this Robert was married to someone in Henry I's family
or a cousin..etc. or perhaps related from his ancestors.) Robert
traveled to the Middle East on the Crusades with the King. Robert
was the son of

Richard de Courcy, who died in 1098. He was a friend & companion
of William the Conqueror, & fought in the Battle of Hastings.
Became Count of Sommerset & Oxford & received many other baronies
form the crown. Richard was the son of

Robert de Courcy, who built Chateau de Courcy. Who was the son of

Balderic Teutonicus (Baudric le Teuton, Baudry the Teutonique,
Baldricus) who had a brother Wigere. They together traveled east
to assist their friend the Duke of Normandy. They were the sons
of

Wigelius de Courcie, the son of

Charles, the son of

Charles, Duke of Lorraine, who was the son of

Charles III, King of France, Born on 17 sept. 879 & died oct. 7,
929.

[garlands note: this is very confusing. I went to some records
on Charles III & found in several sources that they do not mention
all the children. Now Charles did have a son named Louis IV king
of France, he had a son named Charles & the Lorraine name was down
this line. Now in the time of Edward II of England (who in some
text was counted as marring our ill-fated girl from Norway, Queen
of Scotland & Norway (a decedent of Mary de Courci & Alexander
II &), Edward's sister Margaret marries John Duke of Lorraine, I
tried to follow this line up but haven't found source yet. I also
have it that John de Courcy was the son of Richard de Courcie (I
have no idea which Richard there seems to be many, even in the
same time period, I need to contact the associations in Ulster. I
have a great Post card picture of our John. It was sent to my
family from a traveling friend. It came from the Down County
Museum. It says the card is sponsored for the museum by "House of
De Courcy", High Fashion, & the De Courcy Arms, Church St.,
Downpatrick.)

I also have that Miles de Courcy who became 1st Lord Kingsale in
the County Cork in Ireland & a member of the Counsel under Henry
of England in 1181. It states his father was John. Given the
dates it is easy to assume that our John is the Father. There are
also some letters I have a copy of from the 1800's that show the
line coming from John to Miles. There are also many sources that
state when John championed the war for England against France that
this is how he was bestowed the right to wear hat. Below is just
one of the more widely distributed sources & was one I just had sent
to me. My Grandmother went to England & Ireland w/ my uncle & they
also got a version from the keepers of the Tower.

"The Prince and the Pauper" by Mark Twain
(Set in the mid-16th century)

Chapter 12; The Prince and His Deliverer

"Near four hundred years ago, as your grace knoweth, there being
ill blood betwixt John, king of England, & the king of France, it
was decreed that two champions should fight together in the
lists, & so settle the dispute by what is called the arbitrament
of God. These two kings & the Spanish king, being assembled to
witness & judge the conflict, the French champion appeared,
but so redoubtable was he that our English knights refused to
measure weapons with him. So the matter, which was a weighty one,
was like to go against the English monarch by default.

"Now in the tower lay the Lord de Courcy, the mightiest arm in
England, stripped of his honors & possessions, and wasting with
long captivity. Appeal was made to him. He gave assent & came
forth arrayed for battle, but no sooner did the Frenchman glimpse
his huge frame & hear his famous name but he fled away, & the
French king's cause was lost. King John restored De Courcy's
titles & possessions & said, Name thy wish & thy shalt have it,
though it cost me half my kingdom,' whereat De Courcy, kneeling as
I do now, made answer, This, then, I ask, my liege: that I & my
successors may have & hold the privilege of remaining covered in
the presence of the kings of England, henceforth while the throne
shall last.' "The boon was granted, as your majesty knoweth, &
there hath been no time, these four hundred years, that line
has failed of an heir, & so, even unto this day, the head of that
ancient house still weareth his hat or helm before the king's
majesty, without let or hindrance, & this none other may do.
[Footnote: The lords of Kingsale, descendants of De Courcy, still
enjoy this curious privilege.]"

There is also a lot of things i copied out of the "Dictionary of
National Biography under Courci. I have miss placed. I need to
go back to the library & fork over the $0.15 -.20 a page!! ARG!

Now to my link with the family.

You will also find some interest in the Work of Jane Austin "Lady
Susan" , I have it that it is placed with another Novelette "The
Watsons" & Jane Austins Letters. It is based on letters between &
about Sir Reginald De Courcy, his wife, son & daughter, it gives
reference to his ancient family etc.. (I have not yet acquired this
work, but was told of it)

There are also many letters, & charters & papers & Treaties between
England & the Iroquois Indians negotiated by Henry deCourcy, in the Manuscript
Division of the USA Library of Congress. They were placed there by the late
Honorable Herbert May of Washington, Who was decended from the 3
brothers William, Henry & John (as am I) who came to the New World by orders of
English crown in the 1640's. They were then to work for Charles the Third Lord
Baltimore. They were the younger sons of Gerald de Courcy 19
th Baron of Kingsale, Courcy of Courcy & Ringrom, Member of the Privy Council
of Charles I King of England, & Gentle man of the Court.

The wills of these gentleman bear the Arms & Helmet & Crest as
well as mantling, displaying 3 eagles (griffins) and that lands
had to be settled with kin in Ireland & England. The deeds with
signatures of sale of the properties by relatives abroad have the
seals of their titles. One of the mentioned was left to a James de
Coursey of Lincoln's Inn, County Middlesex, England.

When the Baron of Kingsale died in 1763 (one source states 1759).
The family & then the court sent letters to the relatives in the
New World with requests to take Seat in House of Lords & the estates of Coury &
Ringrome

I am decended from Col. Henry (2nd wife Mrs. Elizabeth Smith
Carpenter), to James, to John (m. Susanna Hanson), to William (m.
Elizabeth Bowers), to Capt. John (2nd wife Mrs. Mary Mannering), to
James Alfred (m. Nancy Pomeroy), to Arthur St. Clair (m. ), to Alvin
Herbert (m. Mary/May Florence Walters a decedent to the William of
the Manor Barkham, Birks England, Ball line, with 2 links to the
Washington family & 1 to the Custer Family, {have chart if it would
assist anyone else's research}, whos ancestor that came to the New
World left England England from the same town of Lincoln's Inn at
the same time as My 3 sons of Gerald), to William Charles (m. Thelma
Atwood, mother O'Mahony), we still have reunions every 3 years), to
John Logan (1st m. Nancy Lee Talbott of the location of the signing
of treaty at appomatix & other adventures & 2ndly m. a Davis whose
grandma is a related Ball. We attend reunions every year, funny how
we reconnect) to me Garland Elizabeth (who married a
Hamby/Bolton), to my son Travis Zachary

I have copies of almost all Wills & references to military records
etc.. in a book published in 1978 Called "The Corse family".

I have a copy of a page from the "Public Ledger, Philadelphia,
Saturday Morning, Aug. 27, 1932" There is a column titled "Who are
You?" That days pick was "A De Courcey?" by Ruby Haskins Ellis. The
de Courcey crest etc., is boldly on the page. It mentions many
great ancestors & about the name changes & how Capt. Edward Coursey
addressed his sons in the matters of the family name. Before &
since the public & respectable manner that the de Courseys came to
the New World there have been many variations due to the antipathy
which some times existed betwixt the subjects of Great Britain &
France & probably they intended to efface the mark of French
descent. I reference to Col. Henry De Courcey of MD on the Mid
1600's it states that Henry who, inconsequence of his valuable
services to the colony, in his legal & especially in regard to his
treaty w/ the Iroquois Indians, was granted by the Royal Governor
"as much land as he could cover with his hand" on a map spread out
before him. He then selected a point on Queenstown creek. Where he
placed his thumb, then tracing a line around an outspread hand, he
covered a space equivalent to 1600 acres. (Henry & his brothers
were also granted other lands & when they first went into service in
the Colonies, as well as earn many more).

There are mentions of the de Courcy families in the large series by Will &
Aureil Durant. There are many documents etc.. that support the history. Many
are in England & Ireland. Some are here in the US. I will list som
e sources that support this. Court Records of Kent County Delaware
1680-1705;edition by Leon DeValinger, Jr;State Archivist of Delaware, 1959;
pp.15-16. a Chart in the possession of E.J.T. Metzler, of Delaware, & a copy
in the "Turner File" Delaware Hall of Records, Dover Delaware. Colonial
Families of America, Ruth Lawrence, Pub. by National American Society, NY,
1928; Vol. II, p.280. Archives of MD LIV, Proceedings of the County
Courts of Kent 1648-1676, Talbot 1662-1674, Somerset 1665-1668
Counties, pub. Authority of the State of MD under the Direction of
the MD Historical Society, 1937; p.XVIII, XXIV, XXIII & to many
places in archives of MD to list. Queen Annes County MD, Its
early History & Development by Frederic Emory, Original pub. in
Centerville Observer 1886-1887; Baltimore, The Historical Society,
1950. MD Historian Magazine, Vol 22, 1927 "Some decedents of
Col. Philiop Brisco". Maryland Calendar of Wills, Vol II,
compiled by Jane Baldwin & Roberta Bolling Henry, Wills from
1685-1702; Kohn & Pollock, inc. pub Baltimore MD 1917. Heraldic
Marlandiana, by Harry Wright Newman, Published in wash DC. 1968.
also Wills in Talbott County, Vox S, Folder &, Queens Anne County,
box 2, Folder 75. Library of congress Manuscript division & the
Local History, genealogy, & heraldry Division. "The Eastern Shore
of MD & VA" by Charles B. Clark 3 Volumes.

This thread:

• HELP: Who was John de Courci ??? by Tom Bjornstad <>

  • Re: HELP: Who was John de Courci ??? by Nietzsche <>

  • Re: HELP: Who was John de Courci ??? by Nietzsche <>
  • Re: HELP: Who was John de Courci ??? by "William A. Reitwiesner" <>