GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: Jared Olar <>
Subject: Re: Yaroslav I & Ingegerda
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:10:58 -0500
In-Reply-To: <4ouno6$gge@decaxp.HARVARD.EDU>

On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Russell Martin wrote:

> Stewart Baldwin () wrote:
>
> The main argument against Riurik being the father of Igor is a
> chronological one, i.e., the generation length is way too long. I
> agree that Riurik was _probably_ not the father of Igor, but the
> possibility still exists.
>
> I suppose, but the main argument against this genealogical link is not
> "chronological" since this relies too much on the Povest''s take on
> things. The first solid attacks on the view stem from the reevaluations
> of this chronicle as a source for this period in early Rus' history--as
> compared to Scandinavian, Arabic, Runic, etc. sources. What evidence can
> you present outside the Povest' (and derived sources) that Riurik was the
> father or kinsman of (St.) Igor?

Rather, what evidence do we have outside of the Povest' and derived
sources that Rurik ever existed?

> The national religion of the Khazars was Judaism. How do the
> descendants of a Jewish dynasty end up with such Scandinavian names as
> Riurik (Rorik), Oleg (Helgi), Olga (Helga), and Igor (Ingvar)?
>
> Pritsak does explain origin of Scandinavian names.

I haven't examined Pritsak, but I've encountered various embarrassing
forays into linguistics and etymology in my studies. There have been
sincere attempts to show that Irish, or Armenian, or Hebrew, or (take
your pick) was the "language of Eden" from which all later languages
evolved. When confronted with a body of Scandinavian-like names in a
land known to have been settled by Scandinavians in an era when
Scandinavians are known to have been active, the natural thing to do is
to accept that these are Slavic approximations of Scandinavian names.

> As far as religion is concerned, however, I think it, like language,
> was as exchangable as socks.

Such a statement Russ!

Yes, we have examples of peoples and rulers changing culture, religion,
and national identity. But such changes always take place according to
certain processes. In the case of the viking theory of origins of the
Rurikids, we have the fact of Scandinavian names and Scandinavian
activity/settlement in the Russian lands to back it all up. The
Scandinavians would quite naturally become Slavicised in a few
generations. But in the case of a Khazar origin theory, we have no
evidence of a conversion from Judaism to a Slavic pagan religious
culture, nor do we find Jewish names--and we ought to find some trace of
both if this theory were true. "Rurik," "Askold," "Oleg," and "Igor"
don't sound very Jewish to me.

Jared Olar

This thread:

• Re: Yaroslav I & Ingegerda by Jared Olar <>