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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-07 > 0836559889


From: Andrzej Sikorski <>
Subject: Re: Volodar Glebovich: A Rurikid?
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:44:49 +0200


> >
> > Mistislav, duke of Kiev
> > |
> > -----------------------------------------------
> > | |
> >Ingeborge m. Kanut, duke of Schleswig Vsevolod
> > | |
> > Valdemar I Vlodimir m. Ryksa
> > |
> > Sophie
> >
>
> Is this 3d cousin? When I looked it up (I'm never sure about the
> English way of describing relations!) I found:
> cousins children of siblings
> 2d cousins children of cousins
> 3d cousins children of 2d cousins
>
> The relation between Sophie and Waldemar would be (first) cousin
> once removed, not at all 3d cousin.
>
> 3d cousin was the limit for marriage in medieval times. The relation
> between Sophie and Waldemar seems much to close to be allowed.
> Questions:
> 1. Is Alberic saying 3d cousin or first cousin once removed? What is
> it in latin?

Hi,

Alberic says:
"Iste Waldemarus causa pacis faciende sororem accepit tertii Kanuti filiam
Magni, tertio gradu sibi consanguineam genuit ez ea Waldemarum II, qui duxit
Sophiam de Russia"

He lived a century later so the information about relation between Waldemar and
Sophie was not introduced by him but he had to find it in an unknown source.

In English we can precisely determine the relation between two persons giving
the degree (3rd) and the difference in generations (once removed). But in other
languages we say that they were 3rd/2nd cousins. And in 12-13th centuries in
cases like 3rd not 2nd was assumed.

Regards,

Andrzej

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