GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-09 > 0843922465


From: Nathaniel Taylor <>
Subject: Re: Geo Washington and Joyce Holland
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:54:25 GMT


In article <>, John Yohalem wrote:

> Many years ago -- I was 15 or so, at the beginning of my genealogical
> studies -- the mother of a friend of mine, a woman nee. "Daubney" in Texas,
> which she insisted had once been d'Aubigny and meant she was related to
> Queen Adelicia and the earls of Arundel, gave me a lovely chart, complete
> with coats of arms, of "The Descent of George Washington from King John and
> nine baron sureties of the Magna Carta." Much the worse for wear, it is
> still in my possession.
>
> I noticed, even then, that all these descents were joined by one weak link:
> one Joyce Holland, wife of a Baron de Tibetot, from whom the Washingtons
> could reliably trace their descent. Joyce, the document claims, was a
> granddaughter of Joan Plantagenet, the Fair Maid of Kent, mother of Richard
> II. But no list of the many daughters of her two eldest sons (Eleanor,
> Margaret, Anne, Joan) mentions a "Joyce" or the Tibetot marriage. This
> disheartens me: I have liked to think of the Revolution as a succession
> conflict between ninth cousins twice removed, Geo III and Geo Washington,
> and if Joyce was NOT one of THOSE Hollands, it ain't so. None of it is so.
> All nine Barons S go flying out the window.
>
> So I am wondering if anyone on the List can confirm or deny poor Joyce.

This descent appears in Gary Boyd Roberts, Royal Descents of 500
Immigrants... (Baltimore, 1993), 243. The book is considered something of
a standard, although it is not above criticism. I didn't go back through
his cited sources on this, but you should if you're interested.

Your chart seems to have been missing a generation, that of the Barons
Cherleton of Powys. I'm sure you can find them and the Tiptoft/Tibetot
barony in the Complete Peerage.

Joan Plantagenet (fair maid of Kent) = Thomas Holand, 1st Earl of Kent
Thomas Holand, 2d Earl of Kent = Alice FitzAlan
Eleanor Holand = Edward Cherleton, 4th Baron Cherleton of Powys
Joyce Cherleton = John Tiptoft (Tibetot), 1st Baron Tiptoft
Joyce Tiptoft = Sir Edmund Sutton (alias Dudley)
etc. (through Suttons & Butlers to Washingtons).

Nat Taylor

This thread: