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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-10 > 0846189254


From: Stewart Baldwin <>
Subject: Re: Oldest male line?
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:34:14 -0700


Bryan Tinlin <> wrote:

>What is the oldest traceable European straight male line from someone who
>is alive today? Are there any male line descendants of Charlemagne in the
>present day or, if not, who was the last one?

The most modern attempt to trace all the male line descendants of
Charlemagne is in "La Prehistoire des Capetiens", by Christian
Settipani (1993). The last such descendant mentioned in this work is
a certain Boemond (living 1317), a clerk who was a younger son of
Arnulf, seigneur of Falkenstein and Neufchateau. Boemond also had
some brothers who died (or were last mentioned) before him. It seems
likely that there were some younger sons who failed to get mentioned
in the sources somewhere along the line, and that male line
descendants of Charlemagne still exist today, but it is very doubtful
that anybody could document such a descent.

The generations (with page numbers from Settipani's book) are:

1. Arnulf, bishop of Metz, ca. 613-ca. 629. [p. 147]
2. Ansegisel. [p. 151]
3. Pepin, mayor of the palace of Austrasia, 688/90-714. [p. 153]
4. Charles Martel, duke of the Franks, 715-741. [p. 165]
5. Pepin, king of the Franks, 751-768. [p. 181]
6. Charlemagne, b. 2 Apr 748, d. 28 Jan 814, emperor. [p. 191]
7. Pepin, d. 8 July 810, king of Italy. [p. 211]
8. Bernard, d. 17 Apr 818, king of Italy. [p. 212]
9. Pepin, d. after 840, count nort of the Seine. [p. 214]
10. Herbert I, d. 900/907, count of Vermandois. [p. 220]
11. Herbert II, d. 23 Feb 943, count of Vermandois. [p. 223]
12. Albert I, d. 8 Sep 987, count of Vermandois. [p. 236]
13. Otto I * [see note at bottom] , count of Chiny, d. 986/7. [p. 241]
14. Louis I, count of Chiny, living 1025. [p. 242]
15. Luois II, count of Chiny. [p. 243]
16. Arnulf I, count of Chiny, d. 16 Apr 1106. [p. 243]
17. Otto II, count of Chiny, 1106. [p. 244]
18. Albert, count of Chiny bef. 1131. [p. 244]
19. Thierry, living 1207, sire de Mellier. [p. 247]
20. Hugues, mentioned 1224, 1229, sgr. de Mellier. [p. 247]
21. Thibaut I, d. bef. Sep 1271, sgr. de Mellier, Neufchateau, etc. [p. 247]
22. Arnulf, d. bef. 23 Apr 1281, sgr. de Falkenstein & Neufchateau. [p.248]
23. Boemond, a clerk, mentioned 1317. [p.248]

* Note: This link is not as well documented as the others. See the
sources cited by Settipani.

As for the longest male line descents traceable from the present day,
some Irish families appear to have the best claim as far as Europe is
concerned (and probably anywhere), being probably reliable back to the
fifth century. See the recent thread on the O'Neills which appeared
in this newsgroup.

Stewart Baldwin

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