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From: Richard Borthwick <>
Subject: Re: The Beauchamps Followup #1
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:10:25 +0800


>Susan, thanx for the response. Even though you responded directly to me, I
>am re-responding both to you and to GEN-MEDIEVAL. I trust you don't mind.
>
>There is a Beatrice Beauchamp, who m. Hugh de Morville (d. 1162). What I
>know of her was supplied by Kathleen Much, who used to be a regular
>participant on GEN-MEDIEVCAL, but had to quit due to the press of other
>committments, She was quite knowledgeable in the area of Anglo-Scottish
>nobility. Following is a copy of a msg she sent to me about a year ago:
> ______________________________________________________________________
> I can't find the reference just now, but somewhere I found that
>Beatrice's father was Robert de Beauchamp; I don't know who her mother was.
>If Beatrice or her father had siblings, I didn't collect them. If she was
>the heiress of her grandfather, though, she probably didn't have surviving
>brothers or uncles. (Granted, her inheritance from her grandfather does not
>prove that she got ALL his property, and I haven't traced his holdings to
>see.)
> There is an anecdote I once saw about Beatrice and Hugh de Morville to
>the effect that her lover attacked Hugh with a sword but that she cried out
>in English to warn Hugh. It was used as evidence that the Scoto- Normans
>could speak English, perhaps in preference to French. Hugh and Beatrice are
>commemorated on a plaque at Dryburgh Abbey and at least Hugh is supposed to
>be buried there (I think Beatrice was, too, but it's been years since I was
>there).
>
>W.H. Turton, _The Plantagenet Ancestry_ (1928, reprinted Baltimore 1968),
>says Beatrice de Beauchamp was the daughter of Pagan de Beauchamp and
>Rohese de Vere; Pagan was the son of Hugh de Beauchamp (c. 1066) and Rohese
>the daughter of Alberic de Vere (d. 1141) and Adeliza de Clare. Of course,
>you know the pitfalls of believing
>Turton. I won't have time to hunt up the other source for a while, but
>something led me to believe it over Turton when I entered Robert in my
>database. When I converted it from PAF to Reunion, some of my footnotes got
>lost.
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>__
>
>Your post below shows a Payne de Beauchamp of Bedford as a son of
>Hugh(gen.1). I am wondering if this might be the same person as the
>Robert/Pagan Beauchamp that Katherine Much says is probably the father of
>Beatrice.
>
>Can anyone shed additional light on the issue of the ancestry of Beatrice
>Beauchamp ?

Saunder's *English Baronies* pp.10-12 discusses the barony of Bedford.
Hugh de Beauchamp (d.? before 1114) held lands of the barony in 1086. His
eldest son Simon I succ. and d.1137/38. Simon's daughter and heir (name
unknown) married but in fact did not inherit (there was a squabble about
it). Her paternal uncle Robert d. before 1137 (i.e. before Simon I) and his
sons Miles (d. at some time after 1142) and Payn (d.1156) succeeded in turn
to the barony.
Payn was followed by his son Simon II (d.1207)and Simon II by his son and
heir William I (d.1260). His eldest son Simon III dead by 1257 vp. His next
two sons in turn succeeded: William II (dsp.1262) and John dsp.1265). John's
sisters Maud and Beatrice and the children of a third sister Ela were
coheirs of the barony.

Saunders p.40 notes that Hugh I (d.1187) of Eaton Socon in Beds. was
probably an illegitimate son of Simon I or of his brother Robert. The
cartulary of Warden Abbey says he was the son of Simon I.

Saunders does not mention Beatrice but I have a note saying she is attested
as sister of Payn de Beauchamp, daughter of Robert and wife of Hugh de
Morville (d.1162). I will check this out. Saunders does not mention the
marriage of Payn to Rohese de Vere (d.1166) which casts some doubt on it
since he normally mentions cross connections between the baronial families
with which he deals. Maud (d.1273 wife firstly of Roger de Mowbray
(d.1266)of Thirsk and secondly of Roger Lestrange (d.1311) of Ellesmere) and
Beatrice (d. before 30 Sept 1285) were daughters of William I by his first
marriage to Gunnora de Lanvaley (d. before 1200). Beatrice married firstly
Thomas fitz Oates (d.1274) and secondly William de Mountchesney (d.1302) of
Edwardstone. William I's daughter by his second marriage to Ida Longespee
(d.1266/69), Ela (d. ca.1265), married Balwin Wake (d.1282) of Bourne.

>>Jim,
>>
>>I'm 'guessing' I got this from Homer James' work, probably via Paul
>>McBride. Hope you excuse the ratty margins. The information on Bertha De
>>Braose, m. Walter may now be wrong.
>>
>>Sue
>>
>>Descendants of Hugh DE BEAUCHAMP Companion of the Conqueror
>>
>>1 Hugh DE BEAUCHAMP Companion of the Connqueror
>> 2 Walter DE BEAUCHAMP of Elmsley Castle b: in of Elmsley
>>Castle,
>>Gloucester
>>.. +Emeline ABITOT m: Aft 1066
>> 3 William DE BEAUCHAMP 1st Baron Beauchamp b: in
>>Elmsley Castle,
>>Gloucester d: 1170
>>... +Maud DE BRAOSE m: Bef 1150
>> 4 William DE BEAUCHAMP 2nd Baron Beauchamp d:
>>Bef 1211
>>... +Joan WALERIE
>> 5 Walter DE BEAUCHAMP 3rd Baron Beauchamp d: 1235
>>.... +Bertha DE BRAOSE
>> 6 Walcheline DE BEAUCHAMP 4th Baron Beauchamp d:
>>1235
>>.... +Joane MORTIMER
>>. 7 William DE BEAUCHAMP 5th Baron Beauchamp d:
>>Bef May 09, 1269 in
>>Elmley Castle, England
>>..... +Isabel MAUDUIT d: Aft Jan 07, 1266/67
>>.. 8 William DE BEAUCHAMP 1st Earl of Warwick b:
>>1237 in of
>>Elmley & Hanslape d: Jun 05, 1298 in Elmley Castle, England
>>...... +Maud FITZJOHN, Countess of Warwick d: Apr 16,
>>1301 in Grey
>>Friars, England
>>.. 9 Isabel BEAUCHAMP b: Abt 1236 in Warwick,
>>Warwickshire,
>>England d: Abt May 30, 1306 in Elmley Castle
>>...... +Patrick (Sir Knight) DE CHAWORTH b: Abt 1250 in
>>Kidwelly,
>>Carmarthen, England d: Bef Jul 07, 1283 in d.s.p.m. m: 1250
>>.. *2nd Husband of Isabel BEAUCHAMP:
>>...... +Hugh III Despencer Sr. b: 1236 d: 1265 in Slain at
>>Evesham m: 1260
>>.. 9 Guy de Beauchamp 2nd Earl of Warwick b: 1278 d:
>>Aug 10,
>>1315 in Warwick Castle
>>...... +Alice de Toeni b: Abt 1283 d: Abt Jan 08, 1322/23 m:
>>Bef Feb 28,
>>1308/09
>>.. 9 Maud Beauchamp
>>...... +_ Rithco
>>.. 9 Margaret Beauchamp
>>...... +John Sudley
>>.. 9 Ann Beauchamp, nun
>>.. 9 Amy Beauchamp, nun
>>.. 8 John de Beauchamp of Holt
>>.. 8 Walter de Beauchamp of Powyke b: in of Powyke &
>>Alcester,
>>Warwick
>>...... +Alice de Toeni
>>.. 9 Walter de Beauchamp d: in d.s.p.
>>.. 9 William de Beauchamp d: in d.s.p.
>>.. 9 Giles de Beauchamp d: Oct 12, 1361
>>...... +Catherine (Katherine) Buresa m: 1329
>> 6 James de Beauchamp
>>2 Simon de Beauchamp d: in d.s.p.
>>2 Payne de Beauchamp of Bedford
>>2 Milo de Beauchamp of Eaton
>> 3 Daughter de Beauchamp
>>... +Hugh 'the Poor' de Beaumont
>> 2 Adeline Beauchamp
>>.. +Walter Le Espec, Loed of Kirkham & Helmsley
>>
>>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
>>Susan Shannon
>>Orlando, FL
>>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
>>ARNOLD, CARPENTER, DERBY, DROWNE,
>>GREENE, HILL, RHODES, RUSSELL,
>>STAFFORD, WHITNEY
>
>Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! () Jim
>
>

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